Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Final Ultima

[CPEX] Ragna Gameplay Discussion

Recommended Posts

BBCP_Header_Gameplay_Discussion.png

 

KayEff said:

So this topic is for discussing anything Ragna related. Even gameplay.

Try to keep off-topic discussion to a minimum. I don't mind the occasional casual talk, for example how Lumin x CarnageScissors should be made into a movie, but I really don't want this topic to turn into another netplay general, or even PSN general. Doing so could bring some unwanted attention and cause a lot more mayhem than what this archaic forum already needs (and it doesn't need any).

What you should talk about:

  • Ragna player discussion (from videos, casuals, etc.)
  • General questions, i.e. fighting game term definitions
  • Questions about a move's certain attributes
  • How to perform BnBs
  • How to become better as a ragna player
  • Matchup discussion (although it's better suited for the actual matchup threads)
What you shouldn't talk about:
  • Overuse of off-topic discussion
  • Tier list discussion
  • Combo theory (combo thread)
  • What color palettes you wear/like/whatever the fuck about palettes


Well, with our first set of changes revealed and the first location test starting tomorrow (well, tonight), I suppose now is as good a time as any to start a new thread to discuss Ver2.0 Ragna. Now I'm not expecting anything wild (especially considering that this is Ragna we're talking about), but with all the recent Guard Cancel Over Drive hubbub, it seems that Ver2.0 will at least be a more significant re-balance than Ver1.1.

 

Pre-Location Test Changes
Courtesy of Famitsu, translated by Sourenga
  • "Gauntlet Hades" follow-up rises the opponent a bit lower into air.
  • If you delay the kick, you can still pick up and continue the combo.

 

Location Test Changes
  • 6A cancels into Drive normals again.
  • 6C's P2 (combo proration) has been changed from 82% (once) to 92%. The second hit of 6C now pulls the opponent back toward Ragna. Allows for easy mid-screen 6C (HJC) combos. 6C > Crush Trigger seemingly does not work.
  • The second hit of 5D now knocks down instead of ground bounces on air hit. You can no longer land a delayed Hell's Fang after it to continue the combo, but the knockdown now enables use of Mada owari ja nee zo. The down state lasts long enough for 5D > Dead Spike to be possible.
  • During a successful air throw, Ragna now moves at a slight upward angle.
  • Hell's Fang's hitbox increased downward. Can now hit downed opponents.
  • :cbt: Inferno Divider's launch trajectory has been altered. Upper can not be delayed for as long or else it will whiff.
  • Gauntlet Hades now staggers on ground hit. Aerial Gauntlet Hades floats on air hit again. Aerial Gauntlet Hades > 2A is possible.
  • Keri Age launches much lower than before. As a result, 6A > Gauntlet Hades no longer enables any follow-up combo after Keri Age off anything but 5A, meaning that old Keri Age routes into 6A (JC) > Aerial Blood Scythe are now impossible. However, by launching the opponent higher beforehand, better options are still available. Examples include 6A > 5D(1) > 214B -> delay 214D (enabling 5B or 3C) and 6A (JC) > j.214B -> delay 214D (enabling 5C or 3C). Keri Age's P2 (combo proration) seems to have been increased. Combo listings so far would suggest that it's about 75% now, up from 67%.
  • Belial Edge ground bounces in a similar fashion to Continuum Shift, enabling the return of full, mid-screen Belial Edge combos. The height required to connect with Belial Edge correctly is similar to Continuum Shift as well, meaning that High Jump is largely required, if not a double jump. Some old setups like (corner) 22C > 236D > 2C > 5C (HJC) > j.C > j.214C still work.
  • (OD) Blood Scythe now wall bounces in a similar fashion to (OD) Tsuika Kougeki.
  • Yami ni Kuwarero's P1 (initial proration) has been increased from 80% to 90%.

 

Post-Location Test Changes
  • The ground bounce on the second hit of (OD) 5D has been greatly reduced.
  • Kakato Otoshi no longer causes ground bounce on hit. The opponent can immediately emergency tech upon hitting the ground.

 

Final Changes
Courtesy of Famitsu, translated by SoWL
  • 6A can now gatling into various Drive attacks.
  • Ground Gauntlet Hades (214B) now staggers on hit, the follow-up (214D) floats lower and doesn't knock down.
  • Belial Edge (j.214C) has different blowback.
Unlisted Changes
  • Combo time from "Short" (FAST) starters has been reduced. Possibly a universal change to hitstun decay.
  • Over Drive duration reduced.
  • 5B now pushes the opponent lower on air hit. 5B > 5C is now easier to perform on opponents above Ragna.
  • 5C's vertical hitbox has been greatly increased. 5B > 5C is now easier to perform on opponents above Ragna. Can now be canceled into 6C on block.
  • 2B can now be canceled into 6A on hit or block.
  • 6C's P2 (combo proration) has been increased from 82% (once) to 92%. The first hit is now special cancelable on block. The second hit now pulls the opponent back toward Ragna, allowing for easy mid-screen 6C (HJC) combos. 6C > Crush Trigger works. Can now be canceled into 5D on hit or block.
  • j.A no longer combos into j.D.
  • 5D's damage has been decreased from 550+760 (550+860) to 500+680 (500+780). P2 (combo proration) has been changed from 95%, 75% to 84% (once). The second hit of 5D now causes hard knockdown instead of ground bounces on air hit. The down state lasts long enough for 5D > Dead Spike to be possible. The first hit of (OD) 5D no longer enables immediate use of Mada owari ja nee zo. The ground bounce on the second hit of (OD) 5D has been greatly reduced.
  • During a successful back throw, the opponent now launches lower.
  • During a successful air throw, Ragna now moves forward after the knee.
  • Hell's Fang's P1 (initial proration) has been increased from 75% to 90%. No longer allows for combo extensions on air hit.
  • Tsuika Kougeki's start-up has been greatly decreased. Blowback on hit decreased.
  • :cbt: Inferno Divider now has reduced invincibility.
  • Kakato Otoshi's P2 (combo proration) has been increased from 90% to 92%. No longer causes ground bounce on hit. The opponent can immediately emergency tech upon hitting the ground.
  • Keri Age's P2 (combo proration) has been increased from 67% to 75%. (OD) Keri Age's P1 and P2 have been changed from 90% and 92% to 100% and 90% respectively. A delayed Keri Age now combos into 5B as standard.
  • Dead Spike's blowback on air hit has been decreased.
  • Belial Edge's damage has been changed from 600, 100*N to 500, 200*N. P2 (combo proration) has been increased from 87% to 92%. The last hit of Belial Edge now makes the opponent bounce on the spot on air hit, rather than bounce away. This enables full, mid-screen Belial Edge combos. The last hit once again has enough untechable time to land 3C afterwards.
  • (OD) Blood Scythe's ground bounce has been increased.
  • Carnage Scissors now has reduced invincibility.
  • Yami ni Kuwarero's damage has been decreased from 0+3000 (0+6000) to 0+2700 (0+5400). Regular version's minimum damage has been increased from 25% to 30%. P1 (initial proration) has been increased from 80% to 100%.
Damage/Proration Chart
(Note: Changes are in bold.)

Move - Damage - P1 - P2
5A - 300 - 100 - 77
5B - 660 - 100 - 89
5C - 800 - 100 - 92
2A - 300 - 100 - 77
2B - 500 - 90 - 85
2C - 720 - 100 - 89
6A - 620 - 90 - 79
6B - 720 - 80 - 89
6C - 620*2 - 90 - 92
3C - 720 - 90 - 92
j.A - 300 - 80 - 77
j.B - 500 - 80 - 85
j.C - 620 - 80 - 89
Crush Trigger - 1000 - 80 - 100
5D - 500+680 (500+780) - 100 - 84 (once)
2D - 750 (850) - 80 - 94
6D - 750 (850) - 90 - 94
j.D - 590 (690) - 80 - 75
Forward Throw - 0+1400 - 100 - 100, 60
Back Throw - 0+1400 - 100 - 100, 60
Air Throw - 0+1400 - 100 - 100, 60
Hell's Fang - 730 - 90 - 82
Tsuika Kougeki - 950 (1150) - 100 - 92
:cbt: Inferno Divider - 550*2 - 80 - 92
Aerial :cbt: Inferno Divider - 550*2 - 85 - 92
:dbt: Inferno Divider - 600*2 (700*2) - 100 - 92
Aerial :dbt: Inferno Divider - 600*2 (700*2) - 100 - 92
Upper - 310 - 100 - 100
Yoko Fukitobashi - 400 - 100 - 70
Kakato Otoshi - 480 (680) - 100 - 92
Gauntlet Hades - 800 - 90 - 92
Aerial Gauntlet Hades - 700 - 90 - 92
Keri Age - 800 (1000) - 100 (100) - 75 (90)
Dead Spike - 1000 (600*3) - 90 - 92 (92 (once))
Mada owari ja nee zo - 0+952 - 100 - 100, 92
Belial Edge - 500+200*N - 90 - 92 (once)
Blood Scythe - 1200 (1400) - 90 - 82
Aerial Blood Scythe - 900 (1100) - 90 - 82
Carnage Scissors - 1000+2500 (1000+2500+300*4) - 85 - 92 (92*2, 99*4)
Devoured by Darkness - 0+2700 (0+5400) - 100 - 100, 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
- GH follow up, bounce so low, can only link 5A
- 6A > GH > 6A > BS is gone
- 5D2 no bounce, no delay HF>5B combo
- BE ground bounce like CS1
- 6C[2] vacuum effect

Just thought I'd post this here. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • GH follow up, bounce so low, can only link 5A

    - ONLY link with 5A? Not even jump into a normal j.C > j.D, etc combo?

     

  • 6A > GH > 6A > BS is gone

    - Hope we get something in return then...

     

  • 5D2 no bounce, no delay HF>5B combo

    - Okay so I have a question. Does this mean 5D2 doesn't bounce AT ALL? Or that on the ground this an actual combo route? HF in a mid combo would be interesting.

     

  • BE ground bounce like CS1 

    - Interesting...

     

  • 6C[2] vacuum effect 

    - Does this just mean 6C2 has an easier time connecting?

  • gh staggers on ground hit 

    - Staggers? Like how old 22C used to work?

    I'd really like to know if GH is still unsafe, or if 6B still has no C gatlings. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

  • GH follow up, bounce so low, can only link 5A

    - ONLY link with 5A? Not even jump into a normal j.C > j.D, etc combo?

     

 

That seems to be the case, much to my chagrin. And considering the lengths they're going to to neuter the move in other aspects, I doubt they'd go out of there way to make the move safe as recompense. It becoming a stagger move is going to look so strange after years and countless thousands of uses of it having the same property; a part of me even wonders if it will still have a ground bounce when connecting with airborne opponents.

 

Like you mentioned, HF(1) working mid-combo by linking into 5B would no doubt be an interesting addition. I'm looking forward to seeing how the vacuum on 6C will work; that's definitely relevant to my interests. Furthermore, as someone who skipped CS1 and went straight to CS2 seeing the former's Burial Edge make a return makes me very excited to grind out what's possible with it in CP's system. The update since my last "comment" that things like "stuff>6c>hj.c>be>5b/5c>5d(1)>hf>stuff" works also instills me with a great deal of hope as it sounds as though there will still be plenty of options available to him for combos midscreen and all.

 

The nerfs to GH and 5D--considering the fact that they're by far and away two of the most vital moves in my personal array of combos and in the manner that I play Ragna at present--are definitely gonna hit me hard and force a re-evalutation of my playstyle, but when I think about that's more or less exactly what I wanted. Ragna was essentially unchaged in 1.1, so even if 2.0 forces me to throw a great deal of combos and other elements of my former playstyle to the wayside, the fact that it seems to be giving me a plethora of new toys  to play with and new options to explore excites me greatly. This is, of course, simply the first of many loketests to come before anything gets finalized so things are naturally liable to change, but I just hope that they keep a firm bead on their apparent goal to give Ragna some real "new" to deal with, no matter what buffs or nerfs he receives between now and 2.0's release.

 

Side note, though: if 5D2 no longer bounces and ends up being a solid knockdown, I reckon that 3C>22C might be able to connect with it even in midscreen, which would be nice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would be quite interesting If 6C(2) vacuums on block, would make for some decent corner mixup/crossovers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • GH follow up, bounce so low, can only link 5A

    - ONLY link with 5A? Not even jump into a normal j.C > j.D, etc combo?

Well, maybe 5A> 5C> Aerial?

  • 6A > GH > 6A > BS is gone

    - Hope we get something in return then...

Because of the new BE and 6A> D gattlings his average damage is actually higher than before. The new BnBs does 3.5k while the old (except for 22C dash 5C stuff) did 3.2k max

  • 5D2 no bounce, no delay HF>5B combo

    - Okay so I have a question. Does this mean 5D2 doesn't bounce AT ALL? Or that on the ground this an actual combo route? HF in a mid combo would be interesting.

5D(2) now grounds, or hard knockdown if you preffer, like 2D. This also enables him to do 22C after 5D's, without needing any other knockdown prior.

  • 6C[2] vacuum effect 

    - Does this just mean 6C2 has an easier time connecting?

Depends, reports say that 6C> CT is no longer possible. But it should make aerial combos more easy to connect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

5A>5C doesn't work currently, so I doubt it would in that version.

 

Does anyone know if 5D only knocks down on air hit? And how close does it leave the opponent, close enough to go straight into 22C?

 

These seem like some pretty neat "buffs", but CS1 style belial edge sounds too good to be true. It's only an early loketest, so who knows if ANY of this will make it into the final release version.

 

By the way, how long has it typically taken for a new BB version to go from the first loketest to arcade release, and then console release?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6B>6A>HJB>JC>BE>5B>5D1>GH follow up>5B>5C>5D2>DID kick  2900弱
crouch hit 5B>5C>6C>5D1>GH follow up>5B>5C>5D2>DID kick ~3900
 
5B>6A>5D1>GH follow up>5B5C>hjB>JC>BE>5B>6A>tkBS>5B>DID kick 3497
6DJD whiff>5B5C>hJB>JC>BE>5B>6A>tkBS>5B>5C>5D2>HF follow up ~3600
GHrc>5B>3C>madao>DS>5C>5D2>HF follow up ~3600
GH follow up>5B5C>5D2>DSdc>3C>DID kick 3105

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh wow...A lot of new changes discovered! The new 5D(2) change is definitely interesting and the combos above look promising! I'm feeling more comfortable about Ragna now as a character even if all of the changes don't stick. Guess only time can tell.    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

a few new things i got from this link here

 

- during airthrow, ragna moves in a bit of an upward angle

- hell's fang has a new hitbox below, now it is able to pick up downed opponents

- dbd has P1 90 now, raw damage is 1890 (OD 3780)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

a few new things i got from this link here

 

- during airthrow, ragna moves in a bit of an upward angle

- hell's fang has a new hitbox below, now it is able to pick up downed opponents

- dbd has P1 90 now, raw damage is 1890 (OD 3780)

 

They increase the P1 but not the P2? Arc pls.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

P2 doesn't really matter considering it's only ever used for its minimum damage and lifesteal anyway.
(Then again P1 doesn't really matter either, who's gonna land the thing raw?)

First post updated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

5A>5C doesn't work currently, so I doubt it would in that version.

 

 

It does unless hitstun decay is severe enough in later parts of the combo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

P2 doesn't really matter considering it's only ever used for its minimum damage and lifesteal anyway.

(Then again P1 doesn't really matter either, who's gonna land the thing raw?)

First post updated.

od command grab setups ecksdee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(Then again P1 doesn't really matter either, who's gonna land the thing raw?)

:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

P2 doesn't really matter considering it's only ever used for its minimum damage and lifesteal anyway.

(Then again P1 doesn't really matter either, who's gonna land the thing raw?)

First post updated.

 

od command grab setups ecksdee

 

P1 still wouldn't matter.  Who's gonna land the thing raw, AND THEN follow it with a combo?

 

Also, DBD isn't a command grab anymore.  You can just block it like any other normal attack.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

MashThat5A said OD, and the Over Drive version is still unblockable. Although yes, it's still worthless outside of being a combo ender.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i have no idea where else to put this but i suppose here is good https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nnecTvUslg

 

noticeable changes:

 

- ax kick does not cause ground bounce anymore, opponents can tech immediately after touching the ground (making it the worst rendition of ax kick up to date)

- spin kick/keri age launching power appears to be the same as loketest

- 5D(2) does not cause ground bounce on aerial hit

- hell's fang seems to whiff after 5D(2), so it's possible they might have removed the added hitbox below in loketest? hard to say since they never really do the combo properly

 

if you notice anything else, feel free to post

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×