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WakeUpDP

[CP2] Relius Loketest Changes and Discussion

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Funny that you should mention that. I was peeking through some of the combo stuff in the blog posts, and it mentioned "... > 5B > 2CD > forward j.B" at midscreen as getting side switch + pincer. 

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Funny that you should mention that. I was peeking through some of the combo stuff in the blog posts, and it mentioned "... > 5B > 2CD > forward j.B" at midscreen as getting side switch + pincer. 

 

So perhaps Pincer happens whenever Ignis recovers on the other side of an opponent? Whether she can on whiff or when far away from the opponent remains to be seen right?

 

This vid confirms my hypotheses and more during the vs Valk fight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wqb0mzeYSDo&t=6088

 

Pincer doesn't stop when we block something (Even though blocking makes Ignis stop her move.)  At random times when you cross over an opponent Ignis stays on the other side. Pinser happens on whiff and on any move so long as she ends on the other side of them.

 

The wife is growing distant... and I like it.

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If she goes pincer mode from a far 214B or something similar, I can see this really screwing over our opponent's neutral. Especially if she follows them into the air. People that would've normally given us issues with mobility high enough to just jump over all of our neutral safely are now at risk at just eating a 6D or 4D.

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6B head invuln looks super good. I mean scary good.

 

RYO uses it here right after Counter Assault here to just woosh straight through Mu's j.C.

 

Beautiful. just, beautiful. 2C wouldn't have worked there. This is a work of art my friends.

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It saved him from a j.C possibly, but no CH and a standing hit makes me think that if Mu just held j.4C, she could've just blocked it. That's the only bad thing I can tell from 6B atm is its slow startup and lack of gatlings aside from specials and DDs makes it easy to safejump. Still, hopefully 6B has a hitbox good enough to deal with a few crossup gimmicks

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZD6Rvqsgxk&feature=youtu.be&t=1h8m20s

 

6A is hard knockdown! This means combos, crush trigger opportunities, solo oki, and DEVASTATING UNBLOCKABLES.

 

New things to look into are:

 

last frame 6A>stuff

 

FC6C/41236B>stuff>6A>Tus/other things

 

Various ways to combo into 6A air hit midscreen and in the corner. (I think 5B>6A>4D might work where 4D hits right before 6A does. Merits investigations.)

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http://youtu.be/MZD6Rvqsgxk?t=1h8m30s

 

4D has a new improved flight pattern. It seems to go further float longer and lower. They fly in an arc and tech at roughly the same height they were hit at. I wouldn't be surprised if stuff like 4D>662C or 4D>66C or 4D>IAD>j.B>2C worked consistently.

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After watching Sasaki in that Ikegami vs the world video, one thing has made me happy: possible easier IAD combos. You see him do 2C>IAD j.B and LAND it, he just didn't finish the combo. Since he also used 6A's new knockdown a lot, I'm assuming he was gonna do a combo he tried before and just had an execution error. I feel like he could've landed it if he did 41236B>2C instead of 41236B>5B>2C.

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This character obviously got better, I think it's actually quite odd considering Relius was a pretty balanced solid A tier character with blatant weaknesses and strengths. I predict Relius moving up the ranks to probably S tier as time goes on. To be honest Relius might be the new Litchi. Get ready for the incoming wave of Relius players during the mid-life of CP2.

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I doubt it'd get that good. His mixup got slightly nerfed in the end with the 3C change, so our fastest low has more limited uses. His AAing plan is definitely better since 6B covers 2C's deadzones (no idea if this will help vs crossups though), and AA conversions will be easier since both of then are now jump cancellable. In the end, we just had a rearrangement of stats imo. Still the same, but now slightly better neutral for slightly worse mixup. According to Dogura, its not really any different post 2.0 than pre 2.0.

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I don't understand why most Relius players are so stuck on the 3C "Nerf" it has faster recovery now which IMO is better. You can still stop people from jumping out just as well as before with 3C>6D. Relius' mix up is slightly nerf'd? I guess you could say that if you don't consider unblockables a mix up (I hope you got a DP homie) . 6A hard knock down is going to be VERY strong.

 

Also we haven't explored pincer state at all which will probably be strong. But the real thing I've got my eye on is OD gear super resets.

 

This character got STRONGER for no fucking reason.

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Unblockables with Relius are a gimmick to keep them from paying attention. On oki they can be good, every where.else its a huge risk. J.B got a reduced level, making any blockstring following it have a bigger gap, as well. 3C, even with reduced recovery, still has a limited range, and with its lack of a jump cancel now, we are forced to use more ignis on oki. That, and with confirms being more "difficult" (in othrr words, you cant judt confirm into 3C for full combo) means you may have to use more ignis in general.

As for our buffs, they were only minor, as were our nerfs. Increased dash speed is great, don't get me wrong. 6B, while now having H-invul, is going to be used primarily for beating things that would beat 2C.

Actually, the simpler way of saying it is he didn't get anything new. Unblockables are still unblockable, neutral is still make ignis eat stuff, what was beatable is still very much beatable. A game changer would've been if OD vinun locked people down, ignis moves got increased levels or reduced cost, or led ley with full invul.

Saying he's gonna be better when so far people other than Dogura are thinkin he feels easier to beat is being too hopeful for now.

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3C>6D did they get hit?

 

Yes: dash 2C blah blah blah same amout of meter used if you did 3C Jump cancel.

 

No: dash 5B, 3C again, 2A, raw jump, throw.

Uses the same amount of meter as before.

 

I don't think you understand 6A hard knock down. Hard knock down is pretty rare in BB, it makes situations pretty tough for some characters. 6A will be the new go to knock down unless you are un-summoning in which case you won't be using the doll for oki anyways.

 

Jump in with J.C or jump in with J.B>5A>whatever you want blockstring gap problem solved.

 

Ignis meter doesn't actually exist if you manage your meter and your comfirms are solid it's just there to punish you if you mess up to be honest.

 

If you get knocked down in the corner against relius and you're playing a charater without a DP and you have no meter, honestly tell me what are you supposed to do about this situation? That's not a gimmick bro, that's a GET FUCKED.

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Bluebeat. No one did it. That's enough reason for me to believe no ones adapted to 6A>unblockable cuz its new. Also, j.B>j.C is no longer gapless except on barrier. Now all double overhead attempts could be dp'd if they're reacting fast enough. This also means fuzzies wont work anymore (i tested this by being Azrael and IB'd j.B, j.C wiffs clean).

Once again, Sasaki is the only Relius player so far to put these to use, and until lately, I havnt seen a lot of videos of him, so for now I'm assuming no one's adapted to their own characters, much less ours.

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What bluebeat? 6A unblockable looks pretty dam legit to me especially condsidering that the 236D is meaty, which opens up alot of mix ups that you probably can't disrespect.

 

So what if there's a gap inbetween Air dash J.B>J.C? Just Air dash then J.C if you want air dash mix up. They took away the fuzzy because fuzzies are stupid.

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They didn't take away fuzzies. They toon away Relius' fuzzy. And airdash was good because it was 2 overheads. Yeah, a delayed overhead will still be ok mixup, but still. You're being way too hopeful regardless. Wehave a lot of people who are currently PLAYING the game telling us he's either the same or slightly worse and you're like "PFFFT, UNBLOCKABLES!"

Fact: Carl had unblockable LOOPS in EX, yet he wasn't considered super OP S tier. Calm down and stop tryin to shove your opinipn down everyones throat as fact, cuz truth is, its way too early.

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Air dash J.C>J.B isn't a double overhead mix up, if you block the J.B there's no reason not to stay standing and react to him landing. A gap doesn't chage the fact that people will still get wacked by a single move air dash mix up.

 

Jin had a fuzzy in CT it was taken away

Litchi had a fuzzy in CS1 and CS2 it was taken away

Hakumen had a fuzzy in EX it was taken away

 

The japanese have considered Carl a top tier in EX, in CP Carl is actually S tier in 1.0 and 1.1

 

Every "nerf" that has been stated isn't really a nerf it just changes the way we have to excecute certain things but we still have to same options. If you realize that then when you look at the changes all we got were buffs and the removal of something the game creators didn't like since the first version of the game.

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This character obviously got better, I think it's actually quite odd considering Relius was a pretty balanced solid A tier character with blatant weaknesses and strengths. I predict Relius moving up the ranks to probably S tier as time goes on. To be honest Relius might be the new Litchi. Get ready for the incoming wave of Relius players during the mid-life of CP2.

 

Well post damage control we've lost:

 

our primary air to air, j.B. J.A will be almost as effective if not just as though. What remains to be seen is just how bad the hitbox got hurt. I believe it will still confirm easily on CH, and that we can still use it in cross-ups despite reduced hit-stun, but I won't know until I have my hands on 2.0.

 

our primary safe jump tool (The only remaining ones being Ignis cancels/4D/~j.214B/j.236C/rapid/Vinum.) For me, someone who developed a lot of solo tech, this is disheartening, but it shouldn't be a problem for those who manage their meter well, or else can deal with a small damage j.236C ender or non-safejump oki.

 

6B's functionality in solo combos looks low to nil (depending entirely on how the new start-up will affect air hit 6B in already established routes) 2C looks like it'll pick up the slack wherever there's no height nessesity. Considering 2C's damage, hitstun, float, and proration being better, I can see no reason not to make the substitution when possible.

 

With the pincer system I can't really say exactly what we've gained or lost, but I can make a hypotheses. It looks like we're gaining a great deal of space control per Ignis expenditure. I don't know how effective long range pincer will be for letting us approach, but it will at least threaten them while keeping Ignis safe. My only problem with Pincer is that it looks as if it cancels out the natural push into the corner that our blockstrings have. To me this is a very important part of Relius' game because as we spend resources we up the ante by putting them further and further in peril. I think the pincer system as a myriad of advantages yet unexplored, and can definitely be considered a buff, but I need to know how to, or if we even can, work around it as well to truly harness it.

 

Before, we, or at least I, used 5B>3C>jump+6D>j.C>66 Something as a blockstring. Primarily because it landed you closer to the opponent than it started you at. Even on Barrier you could keep on top of a foe. It also had highs and lows built in to rattle a blocking opponent, as you could get tricky at any time and yet they still had to move to a high/low rhythm. Also it was super cost efficient giving you multiple mix-up opportunities for 1.3K IG. It also auto confirmed into combos which was super good.

 

Instead of replacing it with 5B>3C>6D>66 Something I would propose 5B>2C>jump+6D as a way of buying your way in to follow up with j.C>665B>2B>6A/2C>stuff. Or empty jump into a low or grab or whatever. Basically treat 3C like 6A, you throw it out when you know the opponent won't be blocking that way and 6D>66 confirm it into damage or to make it safe. There is the very minor problem that 2C is naturally slower than 3C was, so as a substitute it's weaker to pushback and will probably have to be used at a closer range than 3C

 

6A unblockable set-ups are still very new, so tech-outs could still be found.

 

Anyway, I don't think I can quite grasp what Rel's lost until I've played him, nor can I gauge the exact importance of what he's gotten, however at this point I think I can be optimistic about how good he'll be (probably high tier.) It seems to me like he'll be mildly~extremely more dependent on Ignis. But, ugh, there's just too much difference to tell right now. I need confirmation on his dash speed and 3C recovery change...

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Also, if Relius truly was super god tier, I feel at least ONE Relius would've made it into top thirty, but we got no one representing us. Even theory fighting means nothing when no one can make it applicable, which I say is why we wait and see,

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Yeah no Relius top 30 and Ryo opt out to Ragna

 

The Relius changes are huge imo and I am not happy with some of the changes :X

Ignis meter being nonexistent if you confirm like a god is totally not true. You SPEND Ignis to start pressure and if your opponent blocks like a god you have to stop your combo early because you spent too much Ignis opening him up.

 

I think Relius didnt move an inch in his tier placing or whatever (who cares about tiers anyway, Relius has swag)

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I don't blame Ryo for switching to Ragna, the Ragna army will be in full force come CP2. I reccomend everybody have a pocket Ragna for certain ocasions, the character is easy to play and gets the job done with little work.

 

Ignis "meter" is just there to make the game look pretty. With solid gameplay and use of resources (Meter,OD) CP has been literally "Doll never dies" version for both stand characters. If Ignis is dead it's either your opponent is at low heath and you use the last of your meter to try and got for that last 1 shot mix up to kill them and she's alive the next round, or YOU FUCKED UP.

 

Relius can still do everything he could before AND they gave him more options to play with. Solid A tier charater given more (possibly better) options and the fact that Relius has no problem dumping on the new top tiers pretty easily, I don't see how he could not move up.

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Tiers havnt been finalized yet though, right now is the "impression" time. Also, you cant discount the fact that we're talking about a new version of a vharacter that doesn't have a large player base, so I'm sure that for a while Relius players can get away with a ton of bullshit lol.

I won't deny it if Relius is considered strong in about a month, but right now, I'm gonna withold any expectations until we get people up in 19-20 dan in japan.

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Holy crap. Duo Bios hits1-11>2C>6C>41236B>3C does 3K. 1-11 raw does about 2K. That's a huge buff. Enormous even.

 

http://youtu.be/SgF4MoSQATE?t=9m1s

 

Earlier in that vid Relius caught up with someone he 236C~214A'd before they could tech, which leads me to believe the dash speed buff may be very real.

 

Also Bel Lafino sandwiches on hit. I don't know about on block. With the speed increase on Lanto I wonder if (Counter hit ODLafino> Lanto>combo) could be a thing. As you know OD Lafino tracks to the opponent so if you can isolate something unsafe in the opponent's zoning this would mean heavy damage callouts from anywhere.

 

EDIT: OD236C~214B Is like unlimited bounce only the arc on which they bounce is much shorter. Probably could follow up with 5B>stuff on ether version. maybe 41236B even.

 

http://youtu.be/VZoBBrVZO0c?t=16m15s

 

EDIT2: Among not being a FC anymore 2C has been changed on counter hit in that it floats closer. A forward jump into 5B confirms it perfectly.

 

http://youtu.be/VZoBBrVZO0c?t=22m13s

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