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JyakotuKurayami

[CPE] µ12 General Discussion

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I agree with everything pochp said. In particular, I feel the bit about stein timing changing, because that is the biggest differentiator between random Mus and the better Mu players. 

 

TBH I haven't seen the new steins in action.  With rachel the way she is and the current state of CP2, I haven't seen any videos of this game in months because there are no videos of Rachel whatsoever.  The mu I played when I played CP2 didn't make any attempt to use steins from full screen that I can recall.

 

anyway, I was just thinking. Even if steins don't go full screen (how far do they go? I'm sure there's a video for me to look at)... you can still place them full screen with some of the different sets.  I'm sure it's not as oppressive as what can be done with 1.1 though. 

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Their range was reduced by like a half. You can still place 2d and 6d to hit people who are at fullscreen away from you but the opponent can simply approach and force you blocking with the stein's increased startup before they fire a laser and their reduced range

 

IMO they suck as approach tool but are your main source of the new 2c juggling combo's to keep the opponent up and probably look like that they can be used as oki's after a corner combo knockdown

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K5YPFnC_80

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Because it's more fair to the rest of the cast?

It's not unfair to begin with.

@poochp: I just don't see these changes as buffs. the longer charge up times makes my pretty vulnerable IMO, and the longer totsuka blade means it's much easier to dodge. I watched h.h play against mio and mio dominated. I think h.h only won a few matches. My looked like a shell of her former self to me. The way I see it, the new steins are intended as combo extenders.

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No idea where you got that idea, since all the litchi players (like Puromete, Mio, Galileo before he quitted) that i have seen in cp2 videos still do that.

 

Being reckless with staff launch?  Yeah ok.... 

 

It's not unfair to begin with.

@poochp: I just don't see these changes as buffs. the longer charge up times makes my pretty vulnerable IMO, and the longer totsuka blade means it's much easier to dodge. I watched h.h play against mio and mio dominated. I think h.h only won a few matches. My looked like a shell of her former self to me. The way I see it, the new steins are intended as combo extenders.

 

There are Mu players in this very thread who have stated that it is in fact unfair to a LOT of the cast.  I still don't see your point as to WHY Mu NEEDS full screen lasers to be good.  Perhaps you can elaborate.

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It's not unfair to begin with.

@poochp: I just don't see these changes as buffs. the longer charge up times makes my pretty vulnerable IMO, and the longer totsuka blade means it's much easier to dodge. I watched h.h play against mio and mio dominated. I think h.h only won a few matches. My looked like a shell of her former self to me. The way I see it, the new steins are intended as combo extenders.

Longer stein startup is a nerf, no denying that. I'm saying there are buffs too, and the character still looks strong. I think our difference in opinion on Totsuka is based on the intent behind our use of it. I just want a projectile to stay out there for a while, so I can get in or control space, not really hit them. The longer it stays out, the better for me. I really liked BBCS totsuka because it was very slow. Even if they were to avoid it, it's usually with a jump or some air options, which limits their options afterwards, and that's to my advantage. Knowing the last hit is directed at them, even if I go in and get hit, the laser could come back and save me. I think the changes to this version make that part even stronger.

If you're basing most of your argument on that set, I don't think it's a very strong argument. Don't look at the results, but rather how the tools are used, and the options they give the players. If you have the time, check out these matches, from Lava : http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm25233760 I think he plays okay (although I don't like how he plays those matchups), does some questionable decisions, maybe stressed due to the fact it's a tournament, but I think it shows nicely more of the options Mu recieved in BBCP 2.0. (if you don't have a niconico account, use this http://www.mmcafe.com/nico.html . I don't think this tournament is on Youtube. He plays 3 matches, vs a Tager, Kagura, and Rachel)

One thing I felt from that set was that Mu gains a lot more from a blocked 5c than she does in the current version. Lava does 5c 5[d] 6c into whatever, and later uses the shot from 5[d] to cover either an approach or prevent them from moving forward. I don't think these terms are defined anywhere, but for the sake of explaining, I believe you wish Mu was more of a Hybrid zoner. Can we agree on these definitions for now :

-Rushdown character : moves forward, tries to get you to block one of their attacks so they can start their offence. (ex : Ragna wants to get you to block something like 5b or j.c. Off 5b he can 2c to whiff, recover fast, and dash in, or deadspike-dashcancel/deathscythe to move in even closer, where he starts his pressure game)

-Zoning character : uses long ranged moves to prevent other characters from approaching them. Uses blocked attacks to return to a long ranged position. (ex : Nu uses 5d and 6d to push the opponent out. If they get hit, Nu is rewarded. She still has mixup and offence to a certain degree if she gets you to block up close or a knockdown)

-Mu : uses long ranged attacks to prevent the opponent from getting in. Also sets up delayed projectiles that can help both in getting in and keeping the opponent out, depending on the matchup.

If that's not a hybrid, I don't know what you're looking for.

ps : The Litchi vs Mu matchup has always been a really interesting one. Both characters have tools that counter each others' tools really well. For the longest time I was sure it was a strong advantage for Litchi because of how she well she can counter our standard game plan. I don't think it's the best matchup to look at to see how well our tools are doing.

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pochp is a strong player so I would trust his judgment on things a bit more.

 

Things I thought watching some of these vids, and thinking bout the changes:

 

1. these combos are a lot cooler IMO than Mu's previous combos. Because they make serious use of the steins. Mu combos prior to this, for the most part, feel like just a collection of moves. One of the other parts of Mu, just big hitboxes. But Hakumen and Jin have that too.

 

2. Stein cancels look super strong. for example the 5C> 5D> 5C looks very tight. How big is the gap even there? It kind of looks to me like if you touch someone you can get a stein out easier, and then you can probably do some bullshit with that stein like using a DP in pressure.

 

3. 5C. Autopilot 5C>6C can backfire on you now. Some other characters that like to do this have had this problem for a while I think. but blocking 5c didn't get mu that much in CP.  I think that the higher level of play you reach the more likely 5c is to get blocked, and not get air hits off backdashes or low air hits from jumps... I think the balance here has been changed in a good way.

 

4. It's funny but I didn't really notice any of these things when I played 5ish games vs a mu. wonder why.

 

5. Stein timing very obviously was altered to make the new combo routes.  I can't really tell if this is overall a nerf (in neutral, seems like an obvious combo buff..) or a buff. Because of the way steins can be cancelled out of now, maybe the net is positive? I can't really say. Also I can't really tell at a glance just how much longer it is.

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Litchi was the same way, throw the staff and do whatever you want, even if you got hit.  Why not?  It's coming back right? 

 

Being reckless with staff launch?  Yeah ok.... 

Define reckless because when i was watching matches like these

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6oXS4CMB_c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnyoVq9aW24

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX9fvA--qAE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK0JtvwVN_E

 

None of the litchi players had any qualms about throwing away the staff since it was mostly a fire and forget type of attack with the intend to approach without too many consequences

Since you were comparing litchi staff with Mu's steins, which seriously aggrevates me ,because those 2 tools are not that similar because Mu's steins is more delayed because of the longer startup than litchi's staff but Mu has the advantage quantity was.

imo placing and throwing out Litchi's staff still has less risks than Mu throwing out random steins or Rachel summoning pumpkin

 

 

ps : The Litchi vs Mu matchup has always been a really interesting one. Both characters have tools that counter each others' tools really well. For the longest time I was sure it was a strong advantage for Litchi because of how she well she can counter our standard game plan. I don't think it's the best matchup to look at to see how well our tools are doing.

I never liked that matchup in any version because it felt to me that Litchi has an easier time disrupting Mu's setup than Mu was able to disrupt Litchi's

 

Also I forgot to thank you for your cp 1.0 and 1.1 midscreen setup of 6c 5d habaya working against litchi, because Itsuu loses to the meaty habaya because it has no startup invul and habaya somehow manages to beat Litchi's projectile dp by overpowering it with a higher projectile durability

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technically litchi only has one projectile compared to the rest, and the set it and forget it approach has been well to her when she was (admittedly rarely) on the low end of the tiers in previous games. now that she is high once again, it is debated once again and has been for awhile. it's not completely unwarranted when fighting zoners; however it's just too safe in general.

 

there still was a period where she was vulnerable to getting destroyed, and that was when she set the staff without launching. that was supposed to be the unforgiving, balanced part of her gameplan; being completely staffless. I believe the devs have realized that it simply was not enough. they gave her a staffless heat reversal and so this is no longer needed.

 

i'm a little confused because it seems like both of you guys are agreeing that litchi's shit was too safe before. it was. it has been changed. in a decent way that doesnt hurt the character too much.

 

because this is the mu thread.. yeah, HAS OD yata been changed at all?

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HAS OD yata been changed at all?

The lasers hits more and thus it does more damage....... kind of lame

 

It's visually not as fancy as other OD supers but atleast it's buffed. In fact it's similar to Jin's OD ice arrows DD, because that move also looks exactly the same but does more damage because it hits more

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technically litchi only has one projectile compared to the rest, and the set it and forget it approach has been well to her when she was (admittedly rarely) on the low end of the tiers in previous games. now that she is high once again, it is debated once again and has been for awhile. it's not completely unwarranted when fighting zoners; however it's just too safe in general.

 

there still was a period where she was vulnerable to getting destroyed, and that was when she set the staff without launching. that was supposed to be the unforgiving, balanced part of her gameplan; being completely staffless. I believe the devs have realized that it simply was not enough. they gave her a staffless heat reversal and so this is no longer needed.

 

i'm a little confused because it seems like both of you guys are agreeing that litchi's shit was too safe before. it was. it has been changed. in a decent way that doesnt hurt the character too much.

 

because this is the mu thread.. yeah, HAS OD yata been changed at all?

 

That was basically my point.  Full screen stein spam, while not quite as safe as staff launch, was still safe and VERY difficult and annoying to deal with for a lot of characters (I despised the Mu/Bullet matchup).  At some point steins should have been toned down in some way, and I think they did the right thing.  You have to use them carefully now, which I believe is the way they should have been in the 1st place, as opposed to LOL jump back xd totsuka.

 

And to answer your question, I do not believe so.  From what I've seen (very little I'll admit) it doesn't look like it's been touched.

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That was basically my point.  Full screen stein spam, while not quite as safe as staff launch, was still safe and VERY difficult and annoying to deal with for a lot of characters (I despised the Mu/Bullet matchup).  At some point steins should have been toned down in some way, and I think they did the right thing.  You have to use them carefully now, which I believe is the way they should have been in the 1st place, as opposed to LOL jump back xd totsuka.

 

While i never said that the laser fort was not dumb and needed a change, but they might have overnerfed that a bit too much

Maybe you aren't aware but there are 4 fundamental changes/nerfs that made to make the old laser fort tactic less or no longer viable

1. less range

2. slower startup of the laser after set

3. no jump cancel (meaning no airdash or double jump) after air stein set. She has gained the ability to c normal cancel air steins but that's more a buff towards her close range and a nerf to her ability to run away with steins

4. less or almost no float when setting steins in the air. meaning she will drop to the ground faster

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with regards to laser fortress, some of that stuff i'm not sure would really matter.

 

1. Less range? well, I guess it matters a little bit, but a lot of that was just making it impossible for them to touch you. should largely be possible even without the range... difference is it would be a lot easier to get a proj invuln move out. Steins were so tight it was very difficult to reach projectile invuln on proj invuln moves like tsubaki's rush thing or, I'm guessing, kaguras wyvern.

 

2. slower startup.. well, it would take longer to get it going but once it got going it'd be just as oppressive and dumb I think.

 

3/4. no jump cancel , less float. Well, this is the part that looks like it really fixes it.  You just can't put out steins as fast if you can't cancel a stein into a jump / airdash into another stein. air might be one thing, but ground steins there's no way right. you either fully recovery from 5d>6d or you press 5c.  The number of lasers firing continuously goes down a lot because of this... 

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While i never said that the laser fort was not dumb and needed a change, but they might have overnerfed that a bit too much

Maybe you aren't aware but there are 4 fundamental changes/nerfs that made to make the old laser fort tactic less or no longer viable

1. less range

2. slower startup of the laser after set

3. no jump cancel (meaning no airdash or double jump) after air stein set. She has gained the ability to c normal cancel air steins but that's more a buff towards her close range and a nerf to her ability to run away with steins

4. less or almost no float when setting steins in the air. meaning she will drop to the ground faster

 

I am full aware of the changes:

1.  Less range means less braindead full screen stein spam.  It's a nerf for sure, but for some characters, it helps balance the match a bit.

2.  Slower startup allows for better/safer pressure/mixup.  It opens up new combo routes and as pochp stated earlier, if you want to do unsafe things (yomi DP), it should be safer now.   I can also see nasty ways to hide 6B gatlings in as well.

3.  Running away with steins was one of the biggest complaints (along with 5C range) that players made about Mu.  Goes back to that whole using your brain to set your steins.

4.  Seems to me you can now set up oki with J.2c with this.  Not really sure why you consider this a nerf.  Unless of course, you just want another avenue of playing runaway stein.

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I am full aware of the changes:

1.  Less range means less braindead full screen stein spam.  It's a nerf for sure, but for some characters, it helps balance the match a bit.

2.  Slower startup allows for better/safer pressure/mixup.  It opens up new combo routes and as pochp stated earlier, if you want to do unsafe things (yomi DP), it should be safer now.   I can also see nasty ways to hide 6B gatlings in as well.

3.  Running away with steins was one of the biggest complaints (along with 5C range) that players made about Mu.  Goes back to that whole using your brain to set your steins.

4.  Seems to me you can now set up oki with J.2c with this.  Not really sure why you consider this a nerf.  Unless of course, you just want another avenue of playing runaway stein.

 

So? i wasn't argueing that it needed to be changed but it was nerfed 4 ways

 

1. no issues with me

2. you can't claim that for sure seeing that we don't have our hands on the new stein startup. Seeing that Mu loses more oki's after each version, i am not even inclined to believe that.

Also Mu can already use her current steins for safer pressure and mixups as well. Just look at the video that pochedp made for CP 1.0 Mu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnUui0h5QZc

it only opens up new combo routes because it replaces our old combo routes.I won't call that a buff. That's like saying that the new Tsubaki changes are a buff, while most of them are just changes to her combos

 

in between edit:

 

 

・ビームの発生

5D 144F

4D 145F

6D 145F

2D 150F

 

・タメビの発生

5D' 177F

4D' 178F

6D' 178F

2D' 183F

JD' 184F

 

・5A

空中受身不能時間

11F→12F

 

・D>5C,2C,6Bキャンセル

5D 16F~

4D 14F~

6D 14F~

2D 19F~

 

・地上Dジャンプキャンセルのタイミング

5D 16F~

4D 16F~

6D 14F~

2D 19F~

 

Her steins lasers have around 25+ frames more startup

 

 

3. Complaining? I seriously doubted that people actually complained about that aspect of Mu in competitive play. Netplay, yes.  But tournament level , heck no. Her running away with steins was inferior to other characters who can do the same like Rachel or Litchi because the reward on stein lasers are so poor. It's just that the "shooting mode" with 4 steins on the field at the same time was stupid

Seeing that you once played Valk, I am more inclined to say that your main problem was MU experience vs Mu if you claim to say that

4. uhm no. because j.2c has a minimum range in cp, since it can whiff when used too low because j.2c was changed by not having a float as well. whiff cancelling j.d into j.2c works if you are higher but i won't call the stein an oki, because Mu will hit the ground next the opponent at roughly the same time and it will still take a long time before the laser fires. Her new j.2c however, looks really good

 

I don't know what your issue was with Totsuka, but it got better (not as good as CSE version). So placing 1 or 2 steins and totsuka should still be child's play

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This needs it's own post but i forgot about Maguro and he has made an entire page about the new Mu changes.

Funny changes being 

Mu's j,2c now has 14f startup and 5f landing recovery (lol)

 6b(1) is now 16f and 6b(2) occurs after 6f. Meaning that the animation is sped up but Mu's overhead is still 22f.

Ikutachi is apparently even on block

 

http://page.mixi.jp/view_page.pl?page_id=303690

 

The most intersting being the changes

http://page.mixi.jp/run_page_apps.pl?page_id=303690&module_id=1722343&from=menu

 

and proration

http://page.mixi.jp/run_page_apps.pl?page_id=303690&module_id=1722332&from=menu

 

Also Mu's combo rating was dropped from 80 to 70

 

Plus various combos and more

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so the cancel point on some of the Ds is 14 frames. with 18 frames blockstun on 5c that's basically at +4. you're limited to C cancels, but that will make it fairly difficult to beat 5c>6d>5c. although possible with some moves and on IB. Spacing matters.. 

 

ikutachi no landing recovery, +/- 0 on block, lol...  Just me or are people going to mash the fuck out of that? Are they? I still haven't seen much mu gameplay. 

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so the cancel point on some of the Ds is 14 frames. with 18 frames blockstun on 5c that's basically at +4. you're limited to C cancels, but that will make it fairly difficult to beat 5c>6d>5c. although possible with some moves and on IB. Spacing matters.. 

 

ikutachi no landing recovery, +/- 0 on block, lol...  Just me or are people going to mash the fuck out of that? Are they? I still haven't seen much mu gameplay. 

1. or you can stein cancel 6b(1) which also has 18f blockstun, which also gives you the option to go for any c normals including 5c (or 3c for the half assed slow low mixup because 6b(2) hits high). Or you can just use the old jump cancel for additional mixup possibilites

2. ikutachi has a wierd arc and it will go less far as before and it apparently can whiff more easily. So you can't throw it out blindly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyWicKZn36c&t=5m53s

However you can use it safely as a mixup when you are closer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnS0_kfLMnA&t=7m21s

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I'm sure it will work probably a lot, but seems like if you ib'd 6B and mashed 5a you'd beat any options out of 6b>4d>xx? 5c and 2c are too slow at that range. Cancelable means C normal cancels only now right, no special cancels at all?

 

Yeah, I saw the ikutachi in the second vid already - I just didn't it was +/- 0 on normal block because they were using it with a stein.

 

But yeah sure is whiffing a good bit in that video.. Wonder how it turns out in normal play? It seemed pretty stable iirc when playing against Mu (Altho don't get to play mu that much in CP really, my training partner stopped playing me)

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Steins used to be special cancelable and i haven't seen any report that you can't. So i am sure you can frametrap people who want to mash by cancelling it into specials

edit: you can still cancel steins into specials, shown in the OD combo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K5YPFnC_80&t=54s

 

Also you don't want to cancel steins all the time to make it less predictable seeing that things such as 6b 6c or 6b into delayed 5c can be frametraps

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So? i wasn't argueing that it needed to be changed but it was nerfed 4 ways

 

1. no issues with me

2. you can't claim that for sure seeing that we don't have our hands on the new stein startup. Seeing that Mu loses more oki's after each version, i am not even inclined to believe that.

Also Mu can already use her current steins for safer pressure and mixups as well. Just look at the video that pochedp made for CP 1.0 Mu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnUui0h5QZc

it only opens up new combo routes because it replaces our old combo routes.I won't call that a buff. That's like saying that the new Tsubaki changes are a buff, while most of them are just changes to her combos

 

in between edit:

 

 

Her steins lasers have around 25+ frames more startup

 

 

3. Complaining? I seriously doubted that people actually complained about that aspect of Mu in competitive play. Netplay, yes.  But tournament level , heck no. Her running away with steins was inferior to other characters who can do the same like Rachel or Litchi because the reward on stein lasers are so poor. It's just that the "shooting mode" with 4 steins on the field at the same time was stupid

Seeing that you once played Valk, I am more inclined to say that your main problem was MU experience vs Mu if you claim to say that

4. uhm no. because j.2c has a minimum range in cp, since it can whiff when used too low because j.2c was changed by not having a float as well. whiff cancelling j.d into j.2c works if you are higher but i won't call the stein an oki, because Mu will hit the ground next the opponent at roughly the same time and it will still take a long time before the laser fires. Her new j.2c however, looks really good

 

I don't know what your issue was with Totsuka, but it got better (not as good as CSE version). So placing 1 or 2 steins and totsuka should still be child's play

 

I actually had no problem with the Mu matchup at all.  Honestly, it was 5.5 Valk IMO, but that's beside the point.  It just seems to me like she hasn't really been nerfed, just rehauled a bit.

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Hi.

 

Mu looks better than 1.1, arguably the same as 1.0, and worse than cse/cs2.

 

In my opinion.

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