LordKnight Explains Defense and Defensive Option Selects in P4U2

[Anne]

http://www.twitch.tv/lordknight/c/5164646

No, seriously, watch it. Defensive OSes are a thing we've known about and lightly used before, but Japan has been developing much farther. They affect upper-mid to high level play significantly and are super important to understand to use and to also play against. There was a document made by top JP players around June detailing this. Once somebody has enough translated I'll post some more info on them.

Anyways, talk about this stuff, ask questions, learn it.

[Red]

You probably want to Start on 16:02

[OmegaDivider]

Very informative, thanks for the post...I'd have never known otherwise x-x;

[MegaBlues]

Can anyone summarize the information? He's rather hard to understand, in my opinion.

[Devdan]

I can't get this video to load, which is annoying because I really hate option selects and want to know how big of a thing this is.

[mixedmethods]

Can anyone summarize the information? He's rather hard to understand, in my opinion.

I think I understand this one, so I'll give it a shot: the one OS that works equally well for everyone is the Fuzzy Jump OS. After a knockdown, when in a (non-command) throw situation, you tech and use 1-7CD-1, or "tech, downback, upback + throw, return to downback." This causes the following outcomes based on your opponent's pressure:

1. You block low, then stand to tech a throw.

2. You block low, then air throw them out of a jump or air skill (Narukami Raging Lion, for example).

3. You block low, block high, then tech a throw.

4. You block low for the entire sequence.

Notice that except for the second example, you don't jump. Outcomes 2 and 3 are determined by your timing on the "jump + CD." Because of blockstun, you shouldn't actually jump if you time this OS correctly; the blockstun prevents you from jumping, which is why you standblock and throw tech -- that upback is converted into standblock. If Narukami does Raging Lion, air throw becomes an option based on timing; either way, you get out of his pressure.

The "old" OS was simply to hit upback + throw after crouchblocking when you knew throw was an option. The problem is that only hitting upback + throw meant you could be hit low, which is why you need to return to downback.

If your opponent jumps back after a normal to see if you're using this OS, you will be in counter hit state due to the whiffed throw. (Which was another way to check for the old version of this OS. You can see Yume do it in the Evo 2013 matches -- he'll do 5A > 2A stagger pressure, jump back, then resume offence.)

LordKnight has a blog post containing the strings you want to try defending against.

The DP + throw OS works because of blockstun as well as button priority running A > B > C > D. You piano BD + CD and get either DP or throw. (You can't mash BDC.) This is much more character dependent, as you need a good DP -- Yosuke, Mitsuru, and Narukami can make use of this, because their DPs blow up pressure; Liz's DP is a techable grab, so this OS is a weak option for her. You have six frames of throw protection after exiting blockstun (eight frames on IB), so you either get your DP out (blowing up pressure and a potential throw) or you tech the throw. There's probably further wonkiness for Shabrys and Ken due to their D buttons controlling their puppets (which is why B+D or C+D can affect their puppets if said puppets aren't already committed to an action or the buttons aren't hit simultaneously). If you hold downback and do BD + CD, then you have these outcomes:

1. If you see your DP, then you DP'd out of their pressure because it's, well, DP-able.

2. If your opponent does a blockstring, you block; blockstun prevents any of your commands from coming out.

3. If your opponent goes for a tick throw off of 5A or 2A, you tech the throw (the DP is skipped).

You need a good DP for this to work. This lets you DP out of things like Narukami 5A > Raging Lion A, as well as throw tech and block. But it's still a DP, so watch out for blue health. The fuzzy DP OS makes your DP a bit harder to bait and gives you the option of covering it with throw tech rather than just mashing DP while under pressure and hoping it works. For the practise examples LK provided, such as the sweep > 5A > Lion A and sweep > 5A > throw chains, you need to tech after the sweep and make sure you hold downback while inputting the OS; if you don't, you won't block the 5A.

You can still get baited using this one, because OS or not, if your opponent knows part of their pressure isn't DP safe and thinks you'll mash DP rather than block, all they have to do is block/backdash/jumpback (depending on the DP) and your DP will majestically fail. It does give you another option to blow up pressure, though, particularly (depending on the character) in the corner. Yosuke's DP is the best example here. Knowing your opponent's options helps; if they have to dash or microdash, it's obviously more useful in those situations than, say, against characters who can pressure you outside your DP range.

Hop + normal is useful against characters with command throws, because hops beat those cleanly and allow you to hit characters going for a command throw while they're in recovery. Downback + AC (hop) + (normal depending on your character for a counter hit). Again, you have to piano the buttons if you want to use this against normal throws, because ACD = Burst. Same story with the roll OS.

... I hope this is helpful and, more importantly, accurate. >.>

[Anne]

1. You block, then stand to tech a throw.

2. You block, then air throw them out of a jump or air skill (Narukami Raging Lion, for example).

3. You block, then just continue blocking

The thing about the high/low block is you'll have to stand at some point, so a staggered 2A or something like that has a chance to catch you within like a 7~ frame window since you'll be standing. Here's the OS just run back to back, look at the inputs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27meQuoSDG0&feature=youtu.be

The other thing is yeah, if they leave a sizeable delay or call you out and you just jump and whiff, they can punish you. Aigis does this with IAD j.C, Narukami/Mits do this with raw ass 2B, Yosuke has like 9 ways to blow this up, etc. They really have to call you out hard in order to punish you on this, like LK said he'd just use 2B in pressure to look for it, but that opens up other escape options.

[Devdan]

If I'm interpreting what I'm seeing correctly, that doesn't look like the kind of abstract SF4 option select that I was fearing. I can deal with this type of thing.

[Lord Knight]

Can anyone summarize the information? He's rather hard to understand, in my opinion.

 

In P4U, the original assumption was that you had to commit to a throw tech. The total time of a whiffed throw is long, and characters get rewarded highly for punishing these whiffs. However, there are defensive techniques you can use to mitigate the risk and change the interaction you're having with the attacking opponent. In the first place, if they don't understand your method of defense, you shouldn't be able to get opened up by your opponent. To illustrate this, I'll use a typical Narukami player with a basic understanding of the game.

 

After blocking Narukami 5A (-2), if they wish to create a throw mixup, they can do the following:

 

1) Dash throw

2) Dash 5A 2A 5A (continuing pressure)

3) Dash 214A (making the throw tech whiff)

 

You, the player, recognizing this situation, beginning from 1, would input 7C+D > 1 quickly so that:

 

1) Gets teched

2) Gets blocked

3) Gets air thrown

 

The logic behind the technique is as follows:

 

Narukami

1) Throws are generally 5F start up, with a 16F tech window - the game will essentially let you tech a throw for a period of 21F

2) The string described above - 5A > 2A > 5A works out as 5A (5F + 10F hitstop) > 2A (7F + 10F hitstop) > 5A (5F) if they do it as fast as possible)

3) 214A is 23F start up.

 

So, for the first 5 frames after exiting blockstun from 5A, you block, thus blocking the follow up pressure from Narukami (5A > 2A > 5A). From frame 6 to frame 21, you would jump > throw > return to 1 and block. During this time, you're in the 10F hitstop of 5A, which protects you from getting hit by the low, and you should be back to blocking low by the time he moves on to 2A.

 

Technically, it isn't just lows that beat this (really, doing lows alone won't win), but hitting someone out of jump start up, or their jump completely.

 

I use the sweep into the recording options because it shows that there's not a limit to the amount of times you can do it. The recording I use being:

 

1) Sweep > dash throw

2) Sweep > dash 5A > dash throw

3) Sweep > dash 5A 2AA

4) Sweep > dash 5A > A Lion

 

This set simulates two situations for throw in a short window of time, but fuzzy jump should beat all of them if done properly.

[Diar]

What exactly is a fuzzy jump? Anybody care to explain it to all of us? Great thread by the way~

[mAc Chaos]

Would something like this work in BB? It doesn't seem to have anything that's particularly game specific.

[Anne]

Would something like this work in BB? It doesn't seem to have anything that's particularly game specific.

You do something similar in BB using barrier tech and 1 > 7 > 1, but I'm not informed enough to fully explain it. LK actually explained that awhile ago on his stream, just nobody ever put it down on Dustloop cause that would have made sense.

[9:02 PM]

Would something like this work in BB? It doesn't seem to have anything that's particularly game specific.

It works the same way. It's actually much stronger in BB and GG since you have a significantly smaller window wherein you're vulnerable due to the anti chicken block in p4, but in BB you do have to deal with the possibility of TRM setups should you do the OS at the wrong time and the jump doesn't come out (leaving you on the ground in TRM state for quite a while), and in GG the OS is more costly due to the tension drain on FD, and the fact that if executed frame perfect, you can only neutral jump.

One thing worth noting, it is actually possible to do the OS in p4 without whiffing the air throw; there's a 2 frame window in pre-jump where other inputs are not accepted, so the game will tech if you're already in the capture state of an opponent's throw, but the whiffed air throw will not come out, which means you are not in counter-hit state. It's difficult to do, and the OS is still worth it either way, but it's something to shoot for.

Also for anyone who tries the OS and gets a grounded throw/barrier/FD, the input technically in all three games is 1, 7, 1+ buttons. 7+buttons on the same frame gives you a grounded throw in p4, ground barrier tech in bb, and ground FD in GG.

[Justice7541]

The DP + throw OS works because of blockstun as well as button priority running A > B > C > D. You piano BD + CD and get either DP or throw. (You can't mash BDC.) This is much more character dependent, as you need a good DP -- Yosuke, Mitsuru, and Narukami can make use of this, because their DPs blow up pressure; Liz's DP is a techable grab, so this OS is a weak option for her. You have six frames of throw protection after exiting blockstun (eight frames on IB), so you either get your DP out (blowing up pressure and a potential throw) or you tech the throw. There's probably further wonkiness for Shabrys and Ken due to their D buttons controlling their puppets (which is why B+D or C+D can affect their puppets if said puppets aren't already committed to an action or the buttons aren't hit simultaneously). If you hold downback and do BD + CD, then you have these outcomes:

1. If you see your DP, then you DP'd out of their pressure because it's, well, DP-able.

2. If your opponent does a blockstring, you block; blockstun prevents any of your commands from coming out.

3. If your opponent goes for a tick throw off of 5A or 2A, you tech the throw (the DP is skipped).

You need a good DP for this to work. This lets you DP out of things like Narukami 5A > Raging Lion A, as well as throw tech and block. But it's still a DP, so watch out for blue health. The fuzzy DP OS makes your DP a bit harder to bait and gives you the option of covering it with throw tech rather than just mashing DP while under pressure and hoping it works. For the practise examples LK provided, such as the sweep > 5A > Lion A and sweep > 5A > throw chains, you need to tech after the sweep and make sure you hold downback while inputting the OS; if you don't, you won't block the 5A.

You can still get baited using this one, because OS or not, if your opponent knows part of their pressure isn't DP safe and thinks you'll mash DP rather than block, all they have to do is block/backdash/jumpback (depending on the DP) and your DP will majestically fail. It does give you another option to blow up pressure, though, particularly (depending on the character) in the corner. Yosuke's DP is the best example here. Knowing your opponent's options helps; if they have to dash or microdash, it's obviously more useful in those situations than, say, against characters who can pressure you outside your DP range.

 

I'm not sure I get the point of this.  Why would you want to tech a tick throw if you could just DP it?  Why would you even get the tech in the first place, if there's a gap your DP should just be coming out, yes?

[wiredgod]

I plan on practicing this over the weekend, but how does the option select respond to sweep, 2B or something like an Aigis instant overhead j.B?

 

Edit: NM

[Lord Knight]

I'm not sure I get the point of this.  Why would you want to tech a tick throw if you could just DP it?  Why would you even get the tech in the first place, if there's a gap your DP should just be coming out, yes?

did you watch the video

[drugtown]

the link in the OP is broken

 

it just takes me to LK's twitch profile page

[viazoma]

the link in the OP is broken

 

it just takes me to LK's twitch profile page

http://www.twitch.tv/lordknight/c/5164646

[wiredgod]

Finally got around to watching the whole thing.  I'd recommend having this video or just the information it contains stickied somewhere.

 

More complicated question, how do you decide when to use this option?  How feasible is it to hit people in the jump startup portion of the OS?

 

Edit:  After thinking a bit, I think you'd want to save this for keep points in their block strings where they introduce their mixups.  Any additional thoughts?

[Kikuichimonji]

OS talk starts around 24:30. If you just want to see him do the OS and explain it, go to 33:30.

[mixedmethods]

So it doesn't get buried in the news thread: here's an hour of AnneIFrank and bace demonstrating the OSes, how they shape the meta-game and tier lists, ways OSes can be beaten, and the pros and cons of each. It serves as a sequel to LK's tutorial and highlights the layers involved in high-level play as well as risk-reward.

[MegaBlues]

Can someone make a list of the different OSes?

 

I know the 171CD fuzzy jump, but I don't remember ever hearing how to do fuzzy DP and fuzzy Roll. Or any others, if they exist.

 

Also, Aigis' ground throw doesn't follow the normal rules of throw teching. How do we adjust for that?

[kupo_asami]

Lordknight mentioned in his video fuzzy jump, fuzzy dp, fuzzy hop, fuzzy roll and fuzzy backdash.

and I think he said you can do some other weird fuzzy stuff with by doing a 2b with throw? don't remember exactly

[MegaBlues]

We should also compile the inputs for the fuzzy OSes. Can't do them if you don't know the inputs.

[Anne]

I mean we haven't really made a list of the OSes like that because of how weird it is. Basic ones are:

Fuzzy Jump > 1 > 7C+D > 1

Fuzzy DP > B+D~C

Fuzz Roll > A+C~D (careful to not burst)

There are other OSes you can do with different inputs too, hence us not just compiling a list of inputs fo rthem and being like "here you go", you need to practically think about and use the different inputs.