[CP] News and Gameplay Discussion 2.0

[heavymetalmixer]

Terumi D tier? Just because he's not as spammable as before? Give that 2.0 patch and I'll get tech for this guy

[Surf]

Why is Nu considered really good in this version. I thought after the character split she would have lost options

[mAc Chaos]

They focused her a lot more on zoning. So it would make sense if she became a great zoner as a tradeoff for losing some options she didn't really need to zone.

[AchedSphinx]

Why is Nu considered really good in this version. I thought after the character split she would have lost options

They gave her an extra drive on the ground, plus she can go backwards with them such as 5DD > 4DD > 5DD. Her gravity is almost always off cooldown and it recovers really fast. So she can reset her pressure easier. Her damage is also good despite losing Luna form. I'd say her damage is better than Lambda's at this point. All of this essentially bolstered her zoning.

 

She's really flexible now, in my opinion. She still suffers on the defensive end. But there won't be many characters that can beat her in neutral.

[Myoro]

Gotta ask, where'd this list even come from?

 

At the risk of being too demanding, I'd like to know who wrote this and how consistently valid their tier lists prior to now have been.

 

Beyond that I'd love to hear the reasoning behind all of the placements once there's an educated consensus met to where they should be placed.

 

I've kinda been outta the loop with the ways the characters have been drifting in CP2.

[TD]

That list is pretty sketchy. The upper half looks somewhat legit, but the lower I look, the more I question it. Say what you will about Rachel nerfs, there is no way in hell she is D tier. Celica being so low makes me laugh. This is what happens when you succeed in making a character more basic than Ragna. Queen basic bitch.

 

wind is a sizeable nerf, wind regen combos took a hit, lotus got neutered, and most importantly, without a summon rachel's wind pressure has more dpable gaps. not to mention she is a very well developed character, with new tech mostly replacing old ones. whether she is set in stone or not, we will have to see how her wind and IOH fare in the long run. personally, she is a strong character still and her position may reflect the overall strength of the chars right now.

[Zouf]

Bang A tier? 

 

I'm quitting this game

[Dreiko]

Bang A tier? 

 

I'm quitting this game

Bang was a very technical char to do anything with that was Mid-low tier at best in CP. He took much more work to do anything even as simple as a BnB compared to a lot of the cast, requiring multiple IADs and microdashes to do damage comparable to other char's much more basic and easy to do BnBs and he has to manage nails and balance out seal gains vs oki and damage. I was fine with him but he did need buffs just as much as any of the other solid B tier chars did. If you're fine with Nu and Ragna jumping from B/B+ to the top, you should be so for Bang too otherwise you're logically inconsistent.

 

If anything, Valk being buffed back into seemingly best-in-game status when he was still pretty solid in 1.1 should be more of a reason for outrage.

[Zouf]

I just hate everything about bang. Guts talking here, no logical reason

[chzchan]

Bang was a very technical char to do anything with that was Mid-low tier at best in CP. He took much more work to do anything even as simple as a BnB compared to a lot of the cast, requiring multiple IADs and microdashes to do damage comparable to other char's much more basic and easy to do BnBs and he has to manage nails and balance out seal gains vs oki and damage. I was fine with him but he did need buffs just as much as any of the other solid B tier chars did. If you're fine with Nu and Ragna jumping from B/B+ to the top, you should be so for Bang too otherwise you're logically inconsistent.

 

If anything, Valk being buffed back into seemingly best-in-game status when he was still pretty solid in 1.1 should be more of a reason for outrage.

 

His neutral options are pretty difficult to deal with already and he has A+ buttons in the air which make him hard to even touch. Pinning him down is very very difficult and requires taking a lot of risks that are unfavorable in both chance and payout. This is coming from the perspective of a character who happens to be an incredibly favorable matchup on Bang's end, so it'd be neat to hear your perspective as well.

 

If the stuff he is getting will give him a real chance against the characters he has had trouble with, I would not doubt that these same changes will make his favorable matchups even more favorable than they are now.

 

I am definitely not fine with Nu and Ragna, though. Especially Nu. That will be a nightmare for me.

[Stellarcircle5]

I would wait and see if Valk is "best in the game" status. He is absolutely stronger than he was in 1.1, but he can't stay in like he could in 1.0. Nerfs to his corner carry are also pretty significant. I don't think he will be god tier simply because he can only stay in your face for so long with thewolf meter nerf, and his new combo routes mean our oki is potentially less consistent and more resource demanding.

It's more a matter of people know knowing the matchup since nobody uses him, same goes for any obscure/technical character. For example, most people don't know you can punch him in the mouth every time he presses 6D in pressure. His ability to make you block is actually quite weak.

Meanwhile you have characters like Azrael, Carl, and Litchi who just sit on your face until you die without giving too many shits.

I'd also like to say that the return of top tier potato Ragna makes me weep internally

[Dreiko]

I would wait and see if Valk is "best in the game" status. He is absolutely stronger than he was in 1.1, but he can't stay in like he could in 1.0. Nerfs to his corner carry are also pretty significant. I don't think he will be god tier simply because he can only stay in your face for so long with the new wolf meter nerf, and his new combo routes mean our oki is potentially less consistent.

Meanwhile you have characters like Azrael and Litchi who just sit on your face until you die without giving too many shits.

I said "seemingly" best in the game, that qualifier was there specifically because of the reasons that you list.

 

His neutral options are pretty difficult to deal with already and he has A+ buttons in the air which make him hard to even touch. Pinning him down is very very difficult and requires taking a lot of risks that are unfavorable in both chance and payout. This is coming from the perspective of a character who happens to be an incredibly favorable matchup on Bang's end, so it'd be neat to hear your perspective as well.

 

If the stuff he is getting will give him a real chance against the characters he has had trouble with, I would not doubt that these same changes will make his favorable matchups even more favorable than they are now.

 

I am definitely not fine with Nu and Ragna, though. Especially Nu. That will be a nightmare for me.

Bang HAS to be difficult to catch because he lacks any reliable meterless defensive options since his only frame 1 guard point loses to overheads (and they all lose to grabs) so just meatied overheads or grabs back to back make his life a living hell. He also lacks any reliable antiairs that do not get him killed to death when blocked or whiffed. His only move with upper body invincibility is 3C (the super unsafe slide) which is super situational to actually get antiairs with and not something you can do in any and all situations of being approached from the air like you could with Tsubaki's 2C or her DP (assuming she's your main).

 

In CP2 his defense got EVEN worse because his only frame 1 guard point now is not a frame 1 guard point any more so anything meatied will counter hit him and his 2D isn't jump cancellable on block any more so he can't use it nearly as much as he used to be able to. His high tier place is more due to making him able to confirm more things into actual full combos like other chars are able to by allowing him to jD after jC, similarly to how Jin for example can jD any and all air to air pokes into full confirms ending in good oki. Bang could never consistently do this in the past so a lot of random hits ended in mediocre 1.3k confirms into shaky knockdown at best.

 

Assuming you main Tsubaki, the MU really isn't overwhelmingly in his favor at all. You have a DP and an antiair, a command grab and an overhead you can combo with meterlessly, all these things are things that make Bang suffer. I'd say it's about even or maybe slightly in Bang's favor due to it being hard to charge when you have nails flung at you.

[chzchan]

Oh I don't have much of a problem when the Bang plays offensively. You are correct that 2C does wonders (when he isn't apply pressure from behind with j.4B). It is when he doesn't approach me or rush me down and baits my AAs when I have the real trouble. Saving nails for nothing but disrupting my neutral is something one Bang player I fight very often does only in fights against me.

 

Then there's IBing Ashura which I still have not gotten down because it is a get out of corner free card if I don't IB it. Also Bang being able to jump out of any pressure that this character can throw at him and completely avoid hard call air grabs with his extra air option. Don't want to delve too deeply into this because it will just turn into this complaining domino effect again.

 

I understand that you have a lot of weaknesses that I probably should be taking advantage of, but the problem is that I so very rarely catch Bang or gain any ground/momentum on him that I never get to take advantage of his lack of defensive options. It is sort of like with Nu-13 where I can completely blow them up if I get in and am lucky, but I never really get in ever. Most rounds I never even get to lay a finger on Bang. I'm probably just really bad at this game if I can't even catch Bang in neutral, so I think it is more of a problem with me rather than my character.

[Dreiko]

Oh I don't have much of a problem when the Bang plays offensively. You are correct that 2C does wonders (when he isn't apply pressure from behind with j.4B). It is when he doesn't approach me or rush me down and baits my AAs when I have the real trouble. Saving nails for nothing but disrupting my neutral is something one Bang player I fight very often does only in fights against me.

 

Then there's IBing Ashura which I still have not gotten down because it is a get out of corner free card if I don't IB it. Also Bang being able to jump out of any pressure that this character can throw at him and completely avoid hard call air grabs with his extra air option. Don't want to delve too deeply into this because it will just turn into this complaining domino effect again.

 

I understand that you have a lot of weaknesses that I probably should be taking advantage of, but the problem is that I so very rarely catch Bang or gain any ground/momentum on him that I never get to take advantage of his lack of defensive options. 

First and foremost, this sounds like a..."you" problem rather than a "Tsubaki vs Bang" problem. You just need to get used to the MU more from the sound of it rather than the MU just being super bad like Nu vs Tager is where your option as Tager for the first 20 seconds are "block or charge spark and risk death", then you get one chance with spark which if failed puts you back to "block/charge again and hope you have enough life for a second spark to fill up". That's what an overwhelming matchup looks like. You just have no good options at all. Tsubaki has options. She can just DP everything and charge inbetween. Bang has finite nails, make him waste them and then go in. As for Asura, that move uses 50 meter. Your DP is safe too if you RC it for 50 meter, hell, when you do that you get to maintain pressure too, Bang is -7 when his Asura is blocked. Even if you fail to punish it he's still way worse than you are for the same resources.

 

 

You don't really wanna chase him, make him come to you while charging and blocking and get your DPs ready and make them safe with your charges. Then once you land something, meaty grabs/overheads eternally.

[chzchan]

Thank you for the advice and information. I'll keep trying, though I feel like building up the patience to deal with a defensive/cautious Bang will take some time.

 

The "make him waste nails" strategy is something that I usually end up doing. I don't think I have ever taken a round from a Bang that hasn't already used up all of his nails.

[SixWingedAngel]

 

A Valkenhayn Ragna Nu Bang Carl Hazama Litchi

 

 

I cried. No. Literally. This is the best moment of the month.

[Errol]

It's hard for me to see tsubaki:bang not being bang favor. Pretty sure Kiba doesn't like this matchup either (I think this is a fallacy called appeal to authority).

 

Valk's wolf 5C got buffed (blockstun) so you can't ib 5a him out of I think 6D wja anymore. anyway, lots of chars got nerfs, so the chars that didn't get hit so bad are of course going to be enjoying this version. 

 

Like Valk.

[Ziggy_Stardust]

I'm not freaking out over a single tier list yet, bit it's nice to see Azrael placed at B and Arakune at C. I'm interested in 2.0 Iza though, she's looking fierce.

[Dreiko]

It's hard for me to see tsubaki:bang not being bang favor. Pretty sure Kiba doesn't like this matchup either (I think this is a fallacy called appeal to authority).

 

Valk's wolf 5C got buffed (blockstun) so you can't ib 5a him out of I think 6D wja anymore. anyway, lots of chars got nerfs, so the chars that didn't get hit so bad are of course going to be enjoying this version. 

 

Like Valk.

I myself said it may be slightly in his favor due to nails shutting down charging. I just objected to the assertion that it was anything remotely close to overwhelmingly in his favor. 5.5-4,5 sounds fair.

[Errol]

Def.

[mAc Chaos]

Bang is -7 when his Asura is blocked.

I think they increased the recovery on it. I saw a Hakumen get a 3C CH after blocking it, which is 8f. Maybe the Bang just immediately tried to do a move after it was blocked and got hit out of the startup though. Gotta check the video again.

[Dreiko]

I think they increased the recovery on it. I saw a Hakumen get a 3C CH after blocking it, which is 8f. Maybe the Bang just immediately tried to do a move after it was blocked and got hit out of the startup though. Gotta check the video again.

It definitely doesn't feel like it's any more unsafe. The increase was making it -7 when it used to be -4.

[mAc Chaos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrsWN7pMjDM&t=3h06m16s

here it is

[zaeris]

I myself said it may be slightly in his favor due to nails shutting down charging. I just objected to the assertion that it was anything remotely close to overwhelmingly in his favor. 5.5-4,5 sounds fair.

If it's 2.0 that assumption kinda gets thrown out the windows since she's not reliant on charges for damages as much as 1.1

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

I'd also like to say that the return of top tier potato Ragna makes me weep internally

 

I'm ecstatic. Plz be top tier 4eva Ragna.