[CP] News and Gameplay Discussion 2.0

[chzchan]

Well you just have to wait for a few more from different perspectives. I'm going to make a probably bad guess and say that Bang has it easier against Nu because of his mobility and movement options maybe. Or Dora just doesn't see her as that much of a threat.

It is always fun speculating based on lists, though I can't wait to feel things out for myself at the end of April. I hope they make one of those combined East/West list compilations again.

[Raziul]

D:terumi

 

I still think Terumi can be a dangerous character considering that instead of mix up he has loads of frame traps in pressure and his fast heat gain pretty much makes it that he always has a reversal.

 

What's changed that brought him so low?

[TagerTime]

i love how top japanese players are discussing how Tager is either S-Tier or A-tier. I was the only one that knew this day would come despite everyone else here that said before that it would never happen lol. They can all eat crow!!  I cant wait till April 23rd!!!

[heavymetalmixer]

I still think Terumi can be a dangerous character considering that instead of mix up he has loads of frame traps in pressure and his fast heat gain pretty much makes it that he always has a reversal.

 

What's changed that brought him so low?

 

1. Less range for 236D (shorter midscreen combos). But it has shorter startup and better recovery on whiff, making him able to do crazy meaties and frametraps (even more, he can in 1.1).

2. 5D is even more - on block, not sure how much.

3. j.2D has much less hitstun: doesn't combo unless the opponent is crouching and the j.2D is done at the lowest height possible. On the other side, it can be followed with supers and the damage is pretty good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9edGXQd2Mg&&t=3m27s

4. 6D sends the opponent flying lower, so the only possible follow up is 236D even in corner. (I'm not really sure about this one)

 

IMO the j.2D and 6D were the only damaging nerfs, the other ones aren't very important. Also 236236D and 214214D are faster now, so if a Terumi player makes you block the 5D while having 100 Heat in Overdrive, prepare your ass for an unblockable attack for almost 6K ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEKQIFNIg2A&t=22m35s ).

[CosmicShadow99]

i love how top japanese players are discussing how Tager is either S-Tier or A-tier. I was the only one that knew this day would come despite everyone else here that said before that it would never happen lol. They can all eat crow!!  I cant wait till April 23rd!!!

 

It's kinda funny. It seems that over the years my mains have been slowly switching places in the tiers.

[TD]

Well you just have to wait for a few more from different perspectives. I'm going to make a probably bad guess and say that Bang has it easier against Nu because of his mobility and movement options maybe. Or Dora just doesn't see her as that much of a threat.

It is always fun speculating based on lists, though I can't wait to feel things out for myself at the end of April. I hope they make one of those combined East/West list compilations again.

True, there has been only a bit of time for the tier list to develop. It could change, I doubt by a huge margin right now, but change nonetheless. And as you said, it's probably because bang v nu is traditionally in bang's favor.

i love how top japanese players are discussing how Tager is either S-Tier or A-tier. I was the only one that knew this day would come despite everyone else here that said before that it would never happen lol. They can all eat crow!!  I cant wait till April 23rd!!!

Sorry, we're all out of medals. Whatever the case, enjoy your 15 minutes.

[Airk]

Sorry, we're all out of medals. Whatever the case, enjoy your 15 minutes.

 

Further proof that the "This character will always be good/bad because DESIGN" argument is crap. :P

[TD]

I never agreed with that and not sure why anyone would believe that...

I learned my lesson with CT -> CS Rachel.

[Airk]

I never agreed with that and not sure why anyone would believe that...

I learned my lesson with CT -> CS Rachel.

 

I dunno, it gets trotted out all the time by people who should know better.

[chzchan]

Looks like you guys were right about the hole in the list. Still there is no C in his list, so D existing for Terumi is just for emphasis or a joke haha, but yeah this may or may not just be a matchup spectrum for Bang.

[Dreiko]

Nu always was a good MU for Bang, even in CT where Bang was horrible and Nu was Nuts she was only at a 55-45 advantage so it's natural for Dora to see this under his own perspective and list the tiers thus.

 

Valk and Jin seem really bad for Bang though, with the nerf to 6D he can't do anything after the initial knockdown beyond make a hard read or hope he guesses right 3 times in a row.

[BlackYakuzu94]

Further proof that the "This character will always be good/bad because DESIGN" argument is crap. :P

 

 

I dunno, it gets trotted out all the time by people who should know better.

 

 

If you think the the strengths of how some characters play don't factor into their design, you might wanna start rethinking your opinion just a bit. Just Saiyan.

 

 

 

In fact, wasn't the whole "Tager is S tier" nonsense just in regards to the matchup against Nu?

[StylisH]

If you think the the strengths of how some characters play don't factor into their design, you might wanna start rethinking your opinion just a bit. Just Saiyan.

 

Izayoi and Terumi are supposedly powerful as their design states, but both are bottom tier in 1.1. 

[BlackYakuzu94]

Izayoi and Terumi are supposedly powerful as their design states, but both are bottom tier in 1.1. 

 

I can't say much about Izayoi, but Terumi, quite frankly, suuuuuuuuucks. He is really a poor man's Hazama. His normals aren't as good, his average damage out is pretty mediocre, even in the corner. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. 

 

 

That's kind of why he's bottom :V

[StylisH]

I can't say much about Izayoi, but Terumi, quite frankly, suuuuuuuuucks. He is really a poor man's Hazama. His normals aren't as good, his average damage out is pretty mediocre, even in the corner. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. 

 

 

That's kind of why he's bottom :V

 

Oh, that I know.  I'm just saying that you can have great character design, and be ass tier.  Rachel CSE for example.

[BlackYakuzu94]

Oh, that I know.  I'm just saying that you can have great character design, and be ass tier.  Rachel CSE for example.

 

That's because Blazblue balances is absolutely piss most of the time.

[StylisH]

That's because Blazblue balances is absolutely piss most of the time.

 

You'll brook no argument from me friend.  Although I would say that at the time they had good intentions, but we all know the old saying about those.

[Airk]

I can't say much about Izayoi, but Terumi, quite frankly, suuuuuuuuucks. He is really a poor man's Hazama. His normals aren't as good, his average damage out is pretty mediocre, even in the corner. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. 

 

 

That's kind of why he's bottom :V

 

Ugh. Do we have to go over this AGAIN?  How good a character's normals are has almost nothing to do with their "design";   It's all FRAME DATA.   Similarly, "damage output" is only nominally part of design.  Do you think they "designed" Terumi to have bad damage output?

 

There's nothing wrong with his design.  They just made the tools he has too weak.  Do you think he is incapable of being good?  What if every move he had was +5 on block and did 2k damage. Oh, suddenly he's good, you say? But his "design" hasn't changed at all.

 

Any character in this game CAN be good.  It's just a question of whether Arc makes their tools good or, crappy.  A character can have a great design and bad tools, because tools are implementation, not design.

 

And no, the S-Tier Tager talk was NOT only about Nu.

[BlackYakuzu94]

Ugh. Do we have to go over this AGAIN? How good a character's normals are has almost nothing to do with their "design"; It's all FRAME DATA. Similarly, "damage output" is only nominally part of design. Do you think they "designed" Terumi to have bad damage output?

There's nothing wrong with his design. They just made the tools he has too weak. Do you think he is incapable of being good? What if every move he had was +5 on block and did 2k damage. Oh, suddenly he's good, you say? But his "design" hasn't changed at all.

Any character in this game CAN be good. It's just a question of whether Arc makes their tools good or, crappy. A character can have a great design and bad tools, because tools are implementation, not design.

And no, the S-Tier Tager talk was NOT only about Nu.

That's what I was referring to? Did I really have to point out frame data? Why else would I bring up his normals at if not for the frame data :V

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[greatfernman]

if how good normals are and damage have almost nothing to do with design then of course design doesn't determine how good a character is. you just give any character fullscreen normals that kill in a single hit.

[TD]

I think the point here is that as long as the devs still have imagination there really is no "reason" for any char in any game to be bad. Besides each character technically having a limitless amount of options on paper, some of which don't even have to make sense, the devs can give any character an extremely strong normal, special or gameplan. Basically, devs are Gods of their own little game world and its their and their team's say on what a character gets and how it should be handled.

That said, unless you know the dev personally, there's no way in hell you can say this character is forever bad or good. All we know for sure is that valkenhayn, litchi, Jin and hazama have been consistently top for a long time - and neither one of them is "safe" in the next game, even still.

@stylish rachel was bad in CS. CSE she was ok

[BlackYakuzu94]

I feel I should clarify that when I say characters are "Good or bad depending on design", it's not saying "X will forever be good/bad because of how he plays" but rather, "the character has been consistently good/ bad because of how the developers have balanced their design."

 

 

What I mean by design is similar to what TD just said; the character's overall functions, normals, damage, movement, offensive, defense, etc. etc. Everything that factors into how they play and what they want to do. The reason why characters like Hazama or Valkenhayn always top in tournaments and the like is because their overall designs have been consistently good/well designed while everyone else just kind of flip flops depending on how the developers are feeling at the moment. 

[Airk]

I feel I should clarify that when I say characters are "Good or bad depending on design", it's not saying "X will forever be good/bad because of how he plays" but rather, "the character has been consistently good/ bad because of how the developers have balanced their design."

 

What I mean by design is similar to what TD just said; the character's overall functions, normals, damage, movement, offensive, defense, etc. etc. Everything that factors into how they play and what they want to do. The reason why characters like Hazama or Valkenhayn always top in tournaments and the like is because their overall designs have been consistently good/well designed while everyone else just kind of flip flops depending on how the developers are feeling at the moment. 

 

The problem with this is that while it's "correct" it's also meaningless. "X has been good because the developers made them good!" is a pretty useless statement.

 

The fact that a small number of characters have consistently gotten good tools is irrelevant.  There's nothing "special" about those characters, unless you actually think that the dev team favors them for some reason - and that's not something we can KNOW.

 

The whole point is that frame data can change.  The only things about a character that CAN'T is basically how their moves look.  And we all know that that has only a pretty darn limited relationship with what their hitboxes look like.

 

This is actually why I get so cranky about balance issues in this game.  Character X has been bad for 4 games?  How about you, I dunno, make their normals less garbage?   A few frames here and there makes a huge difference.

[BlackYakuzu94]

I never said they were "special"? Like, what are you even talking about?

First you go on and say "Character design doesn't matter" and I correct you on that.

And then you go off on some tangent about them being special or something? Wut :V

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Errol]

Nu always was a good MU for Bang, even in CT where Bang was horrible and Nu was Nuts she was only at a 55-45 advantage so it's natural for Dora to see this under his own perspective and list the tiers thus.

 

Valk and Jin seem really bad for Bang though, with the nerf to 6D he can't do anything after the initial knockdown beyond make a hard read or hope he guesses right 3 times in a row.

 

how did Bang's Drives change? does this affect rachel too?