[CP] News and Gameplay Discussion 2.0

[BlackYakuzu94]

Terumi is actully short for Terubble.

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[D.R.F.]

Can we have petshop tier?:V

[Anne]

Okay time to steer it back more to BB :P

[Qu_Ane]

I thought it was spelt Tweleve?

 

Could someone tell me what exactly is the learning curve for Platinum? Pretty please.

[StylisH]

I thought it was spelt Tweleve?

 

Could someone tell me what exactly is the learning curve for Platinum? Pretty please.

 

Not very high.  The most difficult part of Plat combos are 22C confirms, but I may be wrong since I haven't played Plat since CSE.  Her learning curve is mostly in learning item utility, but then again I don't really use her so....

[Tong]

Yeah, don't you hate it when people make tier lists based on measurable facts instead of people's random BS opinions? ^_^

If by "measurable facts" you mean basing off a character's performance from the japanese footage we get on YouTube, Twitch and nicovideo let me tell you that we get very limited footage from their scene, what you see on these videos is only a fraction of what happens in Japan. And then using this data to create tier lists based off dan rankings isnt realiable enough to tell us what character is stronger or not.

 

You can have amazing characters that are played by a minority and arent high placed, and if we were to use dan rankings they would be considered weaker than they actually are. And works the other way around too, you can have weaker character having top placements (see @Yazumatto's post). Another example is kaqn's Celica, that was one of the highest ranked characters (16th Dan) in Japan, but this ony happened because he dominated his local scene, and again we see another inconsistency here.

I think dan ranking should be only used to give us a general idea of which character performs well in general, but never to set in stone their placements in tier lists.

 

 

Most of these "people's random BS opinions" happen to be from Top Players like Dogura, Fenrich, Galileo, Dora, N-Otoko... people who play at a level that you, me, and probably 98% of the people who posts in this forum dont. They, the Top playes, understand the game, the characters, what is strong or weak and every match-up (see @TD's post) so their opinions weight waaaay more than a GameFaqs poster's opinion or even than some of the competitive players we know.

And well, we usually trust and hear people that are good at what they do, right?

 

The least we, mortals, can do is to follow a Top players' reasonings behind their decisions to place X character to Y tier, to see things from their perspective (which also helps anyone to understand the game better). And I'm preeetty sure dan ranking, the so called "measurable fact" by you, isnt one of their criteria. As I've said before analyzing a character's strengths and weaknesses is the way to go, because that's what the Top players do, because it makes more sense and give us a better understanding of the game and the characters.  And that is a truly measurable fact.

[chzchan]

How does Tsubaki doing more damage make her a better character overall? I thought she needed a lot more than that or maybe I'm missing something.

She does, but more damage makes things a bit more reasonable.

I'll just put it simply because I can't write paragraphs right now. She has trouble with getting in and staying in because of the things other things that make her bad, so the awful damage that she does currently unless she gives up momentum to get resources makes it so that she has to take way more risks than she needs to since she has to open the opponent up multiple times in order to kill. With more damage, she gets the opponent's health down in less combos which means that she does not need to take as many total risks in a fight.

I'd say the biggest thing that the damage buff gives her is actually something to fear when you fight her and fear helps out a lot. She also got a few very subtle buffs which are helping as well.

[heavymetalmixer]

So much Terumi hate here . . . Sucessfull trolling is successful

[Dawn of Musou]

Less hate and more pity really.

[Airk]

If by "measurable facts" you mean basing off a character's performance from the japanese footage we get on YouTube, Twitch and nicovideo let me tell you that we get very limited footage from their scene, what you see on these videos is only a fraction of what happens in Japan. And then using this data to create tier lists based off dan rankings isnt realiable enough to tell us what character is stronger or not.

Has nothing to do with this, sorry. Tagertime is actually looking at actual lists of who is what dan and when. It has nothing to do with what we see on video or don't. It's everyone who has a card thing that tracks their progress.

It's literally measuring the performance of every significant player in Japan, and that makes it the best metric we have. If you'd rather argue that character X is awesome, but somehow no one can unlock that potential, feel free but I won't be paying a lot of attention.

 

I think you are crazy if you think that most of the tier lists we discuss her are based on the opinions of top players. Sometimes someone posts a tier list from a top player, and it's almost always A) Incomplete and B) At odds with the tier list of another top player.  There just isn't that much consensus.  Most of the tier lists discussed here are people here pretending like they are paying attention to what Dogura et al. say.

And yes, increasing Tsubaki's damage is the dumbest/most boring possible way to make her better, but it does help. If you have a hypothetical character who is kinda weak at their normal damage level, and then you increase their average damage by 50%, of course they're going to rise in the tier list. It doesn't mean they don't still have problems, but it means they're better than they were.

[LaowPing]

i'm going to dedicate my BBCPE life to bodying people with Terumi. Everyone shall receive these stomps.

[Tong]

Has nothing to do with this, sorry. Tagertime is actually looking at actual lists of who is what dan and when. It has nothing to do with what we see on video or don't. It's everyone who has a card thing that tracks their progress.

It's literally measuring the performance of every significant player in Japan, and that makes it the best metric we have. If you'd rather argue that character X is awesome, but somehow no one can unlock that potential, feel free but I won't be paying a lot of attention.

Ok, Airk. Then according to this, Potemkin is one of the strongest characters in Xrd because FAB is one of overall Top ranked players in Japan and he's the only player that could truly unlock Potemkin's potential out of the bottom list. Potemkin is one Xrd tops because of this.

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[BlackYakuzu94]

Win a major, or place with him in a high position then talk.

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[Anne]

I think you are crazy if you think that most of the tier lists we discuss her are based on the opinions of top players. Sometimes someone posts a tier list from a top player, and it's almost always A) Incomplete and B) At odds with the tier list of another top player.  There just isn't that much consensus.

What.

A lot of the tier lists I at least see and take into consideration are from top players who I'd trust and at varying points in time. Consensus? There are reasons that doesn't happen. Bias, experience, region, skill level, knowledge, etc. All come into play. And the smart people take that into consideration. Oh, this player is from a region that has the best [x character] that isn't played often. They value them slightly higher. Maybe that player is doing things others aren't, or that player just left an impact on them. Maybe this character is ranked low because they have no experience against that character. Maybe this person understands a set of MUs vs this character better. Maybe this tier list is based on their experience maiming this character.

So yeah, there are a lot of factors that go into it. You know what you do with that? You try to understand that information from their perspective and interpret it the best you can. You also cross that information with the information from other players and lists and find out what lines up. again, we all see Jin listed top 3-5 in every list. Easy, that char is probably just top tier. In other cases we gotta fill in some blanks. Nu isn't top 3 anymore. Weird. Oh look, chars that traditionally have strong MUs vs her have passed her up on some lists. Since tiers are MU based, that probably has a lot to do with it. Woah, that char is high on this person's list. Let's see where they're from and check rankings. Oh, there are two 18 dan players of that character there, something must be up with that.

Tiers aren't an exact science and the fact they're made by people in varying places at varying times makes things like this happen. You take all the information in and interpret until you get a good idea of what the game state looks like and make your conclusions from that. If we're going to talk about tiers and character strength, we might as well do it in a smart way. Throwing out all the insight those players give us is not smart and just lowers our understanding.

[mAc Chaos]

Has nothing to do with this, sorry. Tagertime is actually looking at actual lists of who is what dan and when. It has nothing to do with what we see on video or don't. It's everyone who has a card thing that tracks their progress.

It's literally measuring the performance of every significant player in Japan, and that makes it the best metric we have. If you'd rather argue that character X is awesome, but somehow no one can unlock that potential, feel free but I won't be paying a lot of attention.

 

I think you are crazy if you think that most of the tier lists we discuss her are based on the opinions of top players. Sometimes someone posts a tier list from a top player, and it's almost always A) Incomplete and B) At odds with the tier list of another top player.  There just isn't that much consensus.  Most of the tier lists discussed here are people here pretending like they are paying attention to what Dogura et al. say.

And yes, increasing Tsubaki's damage is the dumbest/most boring possible way to make her better, but it does help. If you have a hypothetical character who is kinda weak at their normal damage level, and then you increase their average damage by 50%, of course they're going to rise in the tier list. It doesn't mean they don't still have problems, but it means they're better than they were.

Except that you aren't taking into account local metagames. From what I understand, these are taken from the players' local scenes or whatever. So if there's one place that has a weak scene, a weak character could place a lot higher than they normally would. And then you have players who are just amazing and carry the character with them on their way to the top. Film and his Hakumen is one such example. And then you have characters that are good but nobody plays so they don't rank high.

[TagerTime]

From what I understand, these are taken from the players' local scenes or whatever.

 

To be specific, they are actually taken from ArcSystemWorks official BBCP2 rankings website. Every single BBCP Arcade Cabinet in Japan is linked together over the internet on the Nesica live network. The rankings are an aggregate of the Top 150 players in the entire country of japan who uses the Neisca live card to store thier game profile data. However if you wanted to you could view the rankings of each individual prefecture separately.

 

i initially forgot to add the link to the official rankings page in my other post for people to view it themselves to know where the data is actually coming from. Here is a pre-translated link http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&tl=en&u=http://sp.bbcp.ac/ranking_view.php%3Fp%3D1%26mode%3Dexe%26type%3Dpsr_rank&usg=ALkJrhge-Hads2dP4XO0rBGkweUatuyb3A

[Errol]

The point is that the rankings depends on who you are playing against. For example, if we had nesica in the united states we'd show up on that same list with lots of people at 15+ dan.  And some areas don't have anyone that play Carl, or play Rachel, or play Valk, and that affects stuff too.

 

It's common for people to go to tokyo and have their dan drop a lot...

 

Also, are your rankings based strictly on if there is just one player at a given dan?  So if someone gets to 18 dan and stops playing their character is permanently S. 

[TagerTime]

The point is that the rankings depends on who you are playing against. For example, if we had nesica in the united states we'd show up on that same list with lots of people at 15+ dan.  And some areas don't have anyone that play Carl, or play Rachel, or play Valk, and that affects stuff too.

 

It's common for people to go to tokyo and have their dan drop a lot...

 

 

 

Yes i understand all of that but he and another didnt know where the data was coming from so i was clarifying that for him.

 

Also, are your rankings based strictly on if there is just one player at a given dan?  So if someone gets to 18 dan and stops playing their character is permanently S.

 

Ahh! so that is what Fenrich has done!!   Actually i dont think that would work because if they stopped playing the would stop earning ranking points, while those who keep playing would keep gaining ranking points and eventualy surpass them in rank. 

 

But no its not based strictly on if there is just one player at a given dan. i gave explanations for each tier but here is an example for S tier.

 

S: spent the majority of the time in the top 10 and held higher rank in the top 5 longer than the tier below, all while having multiple chars in the top 20

 

First i based it on the number of different players using the same charachter that made it into the top 20 over the time period. Second how often the same char took multiple spots at the same time as the other, then by the place the highest one of them reached and how long that the highest of that char has held its spot. For instance over that time period i measured at one time or another there were up to 3 jins, 3 nus, 3 hazamas, 3 lichis, and 3 bangs players all in the top 20 at the same times as the other. The majority of the past month and a half time the top 20 ranks were held by a combination of 13-15 of these same 5 charachters all at once. But jin, nu, hazama, and lichi all held more or higher spots for a longer period of time without dropping out of the top 10 than bang has, Thats why i put jin nu hazama and lychee in S and bang in S-/A+. Also bang is not considered to be overall as good as them and the rankings showed that. Compare that to chars i put in B or lower tier that never came anywerher close to making it into the top 20 over the same amout of time.

[BlackYakuzu94]

So wouldn't that mean your tier lists aren't consistent? Like, what if the players that made it into the Top 20 decided to stop playing and someone from the lower tiers got higher?

[Airk]

So wouldn't that mean your tier lists aren't consistent? Like, what if the players that made it into the Top 20 decided to stop playing and someone from the lower tiers got higher?

Then presumably the tier list would change, like all tier lists do. This is a feature, not a bug?

[BlackYakuzu94]

Then presumably the tier list would change, like all tier lists do. This is a feature, not a bug?

 

Tiers generally don't change unless its a new game or some ground breaking tech about a character is revealed. Otherwise, they're generally consistent until then and don't change every month or so.

[TagerTime]

So wouldn't that mean your tier lists aren't consistent? Like, what if the players that made it into the Top 20 decided to stop playing and someone from the lower tiers got higher?

 

As i said before this is the general impression that comes across based on the nationwide rankings data of the top players playing at thier best over the past month and a half. By the time all the top players quit the game the console version will have been out long enough and a more permanant tier list will have been established. Maybe it will change a little maybe it will change alot. Its fully expected to change though I doubt it will change that much.

[Errol]

what part of the site are you looking at? dan doesn't drop over time. there's IIRC a weird ranking thing that is largely based on how much you played the game.

[TagerTime]

what part of the site are you looking at? dan doesn't drop over time. there's IIRC a weird ranking thing that is largely based on how much you played the game.

 

i didnt say thier dan would drop i said i think that others who kept playing would eventually gain higher rank than them. i thought it had to do with points or something but i realy dont know how the actual system works anyway.... . 

[Anne]

Btw I know about the guild sites and check them almost daily in P4U2 because there might be some change or value to pull from it(plus I just like JP play a lot). You only gain/lose dan by playing the game as far as I know, so you could just get 19 and and decide to make a new card for giggles.

Edit: The way Dan works is you gain/lose dan by playing players of the same or similar dan levels. High dan players will actually sometime play "first to rank down" matches, where they just have the same dan and play back to back until somebody ranks down. Sometimes they do this to rank up too. Sometimes they boost. I wanna say Fenrich had people help him boost to get to 20, because they just wanted to see if you could and how long it would take.

 

Tiers generally don't change unless its a new game or some ground breaking tech about a character is revealed. Otherwise, they're generally consistent until then and don't change every month or so.

Tiers change often enough during the first few months to a year of a game's life. After that they usually stabilize with some slight moving up and down as things are optimized and MUs get figured out. I'm mostly quoting you to add to this and say there's a bit more time and wiggle room involved usually.