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HeWhoRocksAlot

[Xrd] Tier Discussion

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Do we have anyone playing really well at a high level with Elphelt already?

I feel like it's way too early to judge where she belongs at the moment. 

 

well there was some footage of Koichi playing a mean Elphelt. He made me want to pick her up

 

Are the three new characters gonna be added to the arcade roster or are they strickly for the consoles?

 
They'll most definitely be added. Probably not for a while longer, though. Maybe sometime in the spring, like may? But yeah, they will be added just like the past couple BB games

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Do we have anyone playing really well at a high level with Elphelt already?

I feel like it's way too early to judge where she belongs at the moment. 

trust ogawa, he knew that ram was going to be one of the strongest characters when she was just revealed.

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While I agree that Zato and Millia have some ridiculous stuff, it's really just that Potemkin needs buffs. I still can't think of good reasons for why he lost what he did.

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While I agree that Zato and Millia have some ridiculous stuff, it's really just that Potemkin needs buffs. I still can't think of good reasons for why he lost what he did.

Agreed. Millia and Zato/Eddie being better than everyone was always a thing (except like +R Eddie). What they did to Pot (and to an extent, Axl) is just evil.

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While I agree that Zato and Millia have some ridiculous stuff, it's really just that Potemkin needs buffs. I still can't think of good reasons for why he lost what he did.

I second this.

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One other thing to consider: Tier lists measure character power differences at the highest level of skill.

 

This means that at lower levels of play, skill barriers and caps are extremely important toward power. For example, Potemkin and Ky are relatively straightforward, easy to grasp characters with few situations in which they require lots of nuance. Someone like Zato not only has to know how to do what he wants to do (difficult inputs), he also has to make more complex decisions because he has more variables to consider at any one given time. This means that characters like Potemkin and Ky will be much better at lower levels of play as a lesser skilled player can do a higher % of things FAB or Ain could do, as opposed to the same level of player picking up Zato, they would be able to do a smaller % of things Ogawa can do.

 

This is commonly why bad players complain about stuff like fireballs and grapplers. qualities of characters that possess lower skill caps. So if you play a bunch of Pots online and get wrecked or whatever, the Potemkin players could be as good as you, perhaps even worse players, and still win because of this.

 

Anyway my general impressions of the game are: any character can win, really. You might not want to pick the bottom tier, but we live in AMERICA land of the FREE so I'll probably end up getting top 4 a lot by playing like a fucking moron like I did with Tager back in the day. So don't worry too much about your character's power unless you plan on winning evo or something I guess.

 

I really like this post. You make one of the most valid points to all fighting game fans. It's something people seldom think about, but tiers can be reversed at high level/low levels of play. It's something I'm a little worried about as a Zato main, since I have little experience with negative edging and he's an extremely complicated character to learn. My friend mains Ky, so I'm mentally preparing for thousands of losses until I learn the ins and outs of my character.

Other than the bashing on American players, great post. And let's be honest... American players are worse 90% of the time, hahaha. So I agree with you. With that said, Latif was an amazing Eddie back in the day. Not American, but he wasn't Japanese either.

 

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And pretty sure that Ogawa's Zato should be separated from the the usual Zato lol.

 

i feel like Owaga's Zato is the only reason why Zato is so high sometimes lol

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I remember someone said on Twitter that, during NECXV, Satou was asked about Zato being top tier, and he basically said that Ogawa is indeed the only reason he's considered so strong, since no other Zato player is as good as him.

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But even if that's the case, Zato obviously has potential to be that good. The fact that it's only being brought out by one player should be irrelevant shouldn't it?

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But even if that's the case, Zato obviously has potential to be that good. The fact that it's only being brought out by one player should be irrelevant shouldn't it?

Counterpoint: Chumpkin.

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But even if that's the case, Zato obviously has potential to be that good. The fact that it's only being brought out by one player should be irrelevant shouldn't it?

Pretty much.

 

Not like tier list means much to most of us.  I've never once played a match in any GG iteration and felt as if tier had anything to do with the outcome.

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We just arent at that level. Characters in Xrd are strong enough as a whole to hold their own as long as the user is a strong player.

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We just arent at that level. Characters in Xrd are strong enough as a whole to hold their own as long as the user is a strong player.

Exactly. 

 

Besides most of us play online at this point... so delay screws everyone up lmao.

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Exactly.

Besides most of us play online at this point... so delay screws everyone up lmao.

Unfortunately there's Ky "my overhead becomes unreactable in netplay" Kiske screwing and there's Venom "chargers no longer work because of dropped inputs" screwing.

TBH I'm kinda surprised I'm not seeing more Ky cause he's sorta godly on netplay.

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Unfortunately there's Ky "my overhead becomes unreactable in netplay" Kiske screwing and there's Venom "chargers no longer work because of dropped inputs" screwing.

TBH I'm kinda surprised I'm not seeing more Ky cause he's sorta godly on netplay.

When there are Millias and I-nos trolling netplay, who the hell will prefer to play Ky?

 

Plus many players such as myself still play the majority of matches offline. Casual & Tournament. So theory about character & player strength is still relevant for those who play on a higher level consistently. Even if we are the minority.  :wasted:

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Not like tier list means much to most of us.  I've never once played a match in any GG iteration and felt as if tier had anything to do with the outcome.

In AC I definitely felt tiers to a degree. I play at a moderate level, but I'm not a top player by any means. I play Ky, and my friend (who is also at my level) played Slayer. Match-up aside, it was apparent how good Slayer was comparatively based on how much damage he could get off a hit (especially a CH) and how good some of his normals could be. Moves like BBU while unsafe are pretty scary to deal with. I didn't attribute my losses to tiers (I lost a lot), but I did find myself consistently dealing with the frustration of how strong Slayer is.

In reference to the Ogawa making Zato top tier thing: In SF4, when Yun gets nerfed you always hear people say things like 'Good idea b/c Yun is winning so many tournaments kappa'. I would imagine if we didn't have a player as dominant as Ogawa we would have some people saying the same thing about Zato if he were to be nerfed. However, in both cases we don't need a super dominant player to be able to look at the character as objectively as we can and say that he is pretty damn good. Without someone really playing the character to its fullest potential, yah, it might be hard to say whether Zato/Yun is #1 or #4, but it is still easy to see that they are a top tier character (in our case we have Ogawa demonstrating just how good Zato can be). Simply determining if a character is really good is generally easier (and possibly more useful) than determining whether they are the top of the top or just in the top.

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Yea, once someone gets hood enough they feel it. I didnt realize how strong I-No's neutral was until chemical love yrc and that stuff. So now when ppl talk about "oh she sucks" just laugh

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When there are Millias and I-nos trolling netplay, who the hell will prefer to play Ky?

 

Plus many players such as myself still play the majority of matches offline. Casual & Tournament. So theory about character & player strength is still relevant for those who play on a higher level consistently. Even if we are the minority.  :wasted:

 Speaking from experience, on less than favorable connections it's real easy for I-No dash to get stubbed by 6P mashing :(

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When there are Millias and I-nos trolling netplay, who the hell will prefer to play Ky?

 

Plus many players such as myself still play the majority of matches offline. Casual & Tournament. So theory about character & player strength is still relevant for those who play on a higher level consistently. Even if we are the minority.  :wasted:

 

Millia gets pretty boned by netplay IMO, dropping setplay etc. due to lag fucks you cause your health is crap and her mixups were already pretty hard to block even without delay, so it's not like you get THAT much benefit from it become true unreactable.

 

By comparison Ky gets high damage with low effort combos that are really hard drop even in netplay (DP loop lol) and his mixups that were easily reactable before become unreactabe, so he goes from being generally whatever to being an extremely stable damage machine with really strong mixups that lead into huge damage.  He's like netplay Minazuki.

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In reference to the Ogawa making Zato top tier thing: In SF4, when Yun gets nerfed you always hear people say things like 'Good idea b/c Yun is winning so many tournaments kappa'. I would imagine if we didn't have a player as dominant as Ogawa we would have some people saying the same thing about Zato if he were to be nerfed. However, in both cases we don't need a super dominant player to be able to look at the character as objectively as we can and say that he is pretty damn good. Without someone really playing the character to its fullest potential, yah, it might be hard to say whether Zato/Yun is #1 or #4, but it is still easy to see that they are a top tier character (in our case we have Ogawa demonstrating just how good Zato can be). Simply determining if a character is really good is generally easier (and possibly more useful) than determining whether they are the top of the top or just in the top.

I really feel like the only way to judge character balance is by results. When you don't have a player fully exploiting a character's potential, you tend to over or under value a character's tools because they have to exist with the character's weaknesses. People always want to play theory fighter on characters they don't really understand. Often the first opinion on a character advocated by a prominent player is the one that sticks.

You can even look at how the opinion on a character can greatly change within the same game version. In early +R, Slayer and Robo Ky were very highly rated. They both received some buffs, but the reason I think they were perceived as such strong characters was that their buffs (and lack of game changing nerfs) complemented their preexisting gameplan. Other characters, like Eddie had to re-learn neutral/setups and so were underrated early on.

Input from active competitive players is an essential part of any decent tier list. If there are few competitive players for a character, your evaluation of that character is going to suffer.

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Millia gets pretty boned by netplay IMO, dropping setplay etc. due to lag fucks you cause your health is crap and her mixups were already pretty hard to block even without delay, so it's not like you get THAT much benefit from it become true unreactable.

By comparison Ky gets high damage with low effort combos that are really hard drop even in netplay (DP loop lol) and his mixups that were easily reactable before become unreactabe, so he goes from being generally whatever to being an extremely stable damage machine with really strong mixups that lead into huge damage. He's like netplay Minazuki.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. It's why #Reload online Ky was so amazing - good luck getting out of meaty 6Hs and dealing with Greed Sever into full combo in delay 4+. Meanwhile he still has access to his great array of normals as well as a very useable late AA 6P.

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