Ky Critique Thread

[WaffleZ]

Hi, Ky players. Not one of you know me, so allow me to introduce myself.

I'm WaffleZ, a competitive Super Smash Bros. Brawl player. I've been into competitive gaming for about half a year now and I just recently created an account on Dustloop forums. Why, you ask? I bought the game yesterday, and after playing it a bit with my friends, we want to take it to the same level of depth and play I did with Brawl.

There's only one person I'm familiar with in this thread, and it's HF Blade. I don't recognize him from GG however, I recognize him from Melty Blood. HF, if you're reading this, yes, I do play. I'm a Nanaya main.

As my first post on Dustloop, I might as well try to make it useful.

Onto the real purpose of this thread:

I'm not quite sure if this is generally accepted at Dustloop, but over at the Smash forums, there were two kinds of video threads. One was a straight up video thread to browse different players. Another one was a critique thread, where people would post their videos one at a time to be put up for critiquing, given advice and gameplay tips and such. It was a huge benefit for new players such as myself to hear from the veterans and be taught new things based on how they play, and as a whole it drew the community closer together.

Here's how it's done:

-Post videos of your Ky playing in a match.

-Respond to that person by quoting or however with advice.

-Repeat.

This will be especially helpful to new players such as myself. I can't really FRC, I haven't learned all the terminology quite yet, but just because I can't play too well doesn't mean I can't try to contribute to the boards, right?

As for critiquing, how about I go first?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngcAGrfejI0 (vs Zappa)

We're both new players, so be gentle.

[Nakkiel]

Welcome to the boards, and welcome to Ky! Sytha (my local Ky player, he'll show up in this thread sooner or later) is going to love you for your color choice, by the way. Now for the critique: As you've said, you're new at the game. You should read up on the Ky combo threads to learn some combos. I can give you one tip right now though, end your air combos with Vapor Thrust and it's follow up (that's 623S/HS -> HS). It will knock your opponent down from a very large range of heights. Again, you're new, but you seem to rely on Dust and 6HS (forward + hard slash) a little too much. 6HS can be a good poke in certain situations, and Ky's dust isn't shabby, but you should use them more sparingly. A better move to poke with would be f.S (far neutral slash), 2S (down slash) and 5HS (neutral hard slash). If your opponent blocks those moves, cancel into Stun Edge (236S/HS). For okizeme (that's when you knock your opponent down and the action you choose to do while they are "waking up"), you should use Charged Stun Edge (236D) to put the fireball over them while they get up. It holds them in place and lets you run in for mix-up. More oki would be 5K (neutral kick), it's a standing low and if you time it meaty (the move has 8 active frames, you can stick it out so the hitbox is active while they get up), it's very hard to throw or reversal. A good, basic combo you could start with could be 5K 5S 5HS 2D 236D. It knocks down and sets up your CSE okizeme. Another would be 5D (that's dust) j.S dj.S tj.S j.P j.S j.P j.S j.HS Vapor Thrust -> followup. Some japanese players you should look up on youtube go by the names of Buppa and Roz. They're both great Ky players and you can learn a lot from watching their videos. This is a very short, basic rundown but you'll learn as you go and I'll give you more tips as you progress! Hope this helps a little

[Hintalove]

Man, thats pretty funny to watch, but if you understand anything about melty blood it makes a little more sense Fist tip would be to understand this game is not run forward and 2a(2p) into combo. You have to either trick your opponent into letting you hit them, predict their movements and counter appropriately, or just plain do something that they fail to block. Moving GG is much more calculated as the vast majority of characters have viable ways to anti air and control space, and depending on the match up you are going to want to move and attack differently. It's really hard to explain in a way some one unfamilliar with the game would understand, but I believe when and if you fight some one who has some experience with the game and feel you can't touch them at all, you should ponder a little more over this stuff. Combo-wise, I only use ky for fun at home in training mode, but the name of the game for him is basic hit > c.s 2h H VT > kd or another rep of that combo. You can do it of stuff like successful anti air, your throw frc, hitting with a greed sever, off an impossible dust, ect.. Basically any time you juggle your opponent with c.s you can go for it. If you don't feel like you can turn your hit into that combo, your next best option is to gattling into sweep(ie: 5k c.s 5h 2d) and then cancel the 2d into CSE(236d) to force your opponent to get up into your big fireball, giving you enough time to try to break their guard, and/or bait their reversal attempt. You can also run up and tick throw off the last hit(throw them right as they get out of block stun). Once you can do his air combos and combo into VT knock down consistantly, you can begin exploring his other, cooler, and much more impossible to block mixups he has, as well as nifty stuff like stun edge frc combos, but until then just make your zappa buddy wake up into cse every time. Run up 5d will work like a charm for a few weeks, but once you get a little more comfortable with the game you're going to need something else. Just be aware that in the event that the zappa guy gets the same advice you're getting, he'll probably be told he can run under cse, so be aware thats possible. Oh yeah, blocking is always good too.

[WaffleZ]

Welcome to the boards, and welcome to Ky! Sytha (my local Ky player, he'll show up in this thread sooner or later) is going to love you for your color choice, by the way.

Now for the critique:

As you've said, you're new at the game. You should read up on the Ky combo threads to learn some combos. I can give you one tip right now though, end your air combos with Vapor Thrust and it's follow up (that's 623S/HS -> HS). It will knock your opponent down from a very large range of heights.

Again, you're new, but you seem to rely on Dust and 6HS (forward + hard slash) a little too much. 6HS can be a good poke in certain situations, and Ky's dust isn't shabby, but you should use them more sparingly. A better move to poke with would be f.S (far neutral slash), 2S (down slash) and 5HS (neutral hard slash). If your opponent blocks those moves, cancel into Stun Edge (236S/HS).

For okizeme (that's when you knock your opponent down and the action you choose to do while they are "waking up"), you should use Charged Stun Edge (236D) to put the fireball over them while they get up. It holds them in place and lets you run in for mix-up. More oki would be 5K (neutral kick), it's a standing low and if you time it meaty (the move has 8 active frames, you can stick it out so the hitbox is active while they get up), it's very hard to throw or reversal.

A good, basic combo you could start with could be 5K 5S 5HS 2D 236D. It knocks down and sets up your CSE okizeme.

Another would be 5D (that's dust) j.S dj.S tj.S j.P j.S j.P j.S j.HS Vapor Thrust -> followup.

Some japanese players you should look up on youtube go by the names of Buppa and Roz. They're both great Ky players and you can learn a lot from watching their videos.

This is a very short, basic rundown but you'll learn as you go and I'll give you more tips as you progress! Hope this helps a little

Thanks! I've never really found a great use for the CSE, but I guess I have one now. I spammed 6H because I found it can follow up into 5D, in which case I can make up a stupid little combo. I haven't figured out a lot of things yet, and I still have trouble getting a 623H (I think that's a vapor thrust) out correctly.

Also, is there an easier way to get a 5D in without running at them and trying to hit them with a 6H first? Being a Melty Blood player, I'm a bit used to the aerial comboing and it's something that I find comfortable.

Man, thats pretty funny to watch, but if you understand anything about melty blood it makes a little more sense

Fist tip would be to understand this game is not run forward and 2a(2p) into combo. You have to either trick your opponent into letting you hit them, predict their movements and counter appropriately, or just plain do something that they fail to block. Moving GG is much more calculated as the vast majority of characters have viable ways to anti air and control space, and depending on the match up you are going to want to move and attack differently. It's really hard to explain in a way some one unfamilliar with the game would understand, but I believe when and if you fight some one who has some experience with the game and feel you can't touch them at all, you should ponder a little more over this stuff.

Combo-wise, I only use ky for fun at home in training mode, but the name of the game for him is basic hit > c.s 2h H VT > kd or another rep of that combo. You can do it of stuff like successful anti air, your throw frc, hitting with a greed sever, off an impossible dust, ect.. Basically any time you juggle your opponent with c.s you can go for it.

If you don't feel like you can turn your hit into that combo, your next best option is to gattling into sweep(ie: 5k c.s 5h 2d) and then cancel the 2d into CSE(236d) to force your opponent to get up into your big fireball, giving you enough time to try to break their guard, and/or bait their reversal attempt. You can also run up and tick throw off the last hit(throw them right as they get out of block stun). Once you can do his air combos and combo into VT knock down consistantly, you can begin exploring his other, cooler, and much more impossible to block mixups he has, as well as nifty stuff like stun edge frc combos, but until then just make your zappa buddy wake up into cse every time. Run up 5d will work like a charm for a few weeks, but once you get a little more comfortable with the game you're going to need something else. Just be aware that in the event that the zappa guy gets the same advice you're getting, he'll probably be told he can run under cse, so be aware thats possible.

Oh yeah, blocking is always good too.

I dunno how to FRC, and it's a bit complicated for the level of play I'm at right now. I've had the game for 1-2 days and I've only played for roughly an hour.

Are there any blockstings, mix-ups or others I should be aware of?

[Blade]

Tiger-knee CSE (2369+D) for instant Pressure. Also j.D into Air CSE or Stun Raise Forcebreak. Stun Raise increases not only your protection, but also decreases the range of an opponent's attack. Also, 6H can cancel into itself, 5H, 6K, and other things for nice little guardstrings to crank the guardbar. Also don't forget that Air Stun Edge FRC resets your jump, so you can jump and do another Stun Edge or Air CSE or Stun Raise or j.D or whatever. Sometimes, I never hit the ground...just watch out for Volcanic Viper and other anti-airs. When working with pressure, if you do 6H further away, it'll still hit, so don't worry about getting up close so much. 6H staggers and gives you plenty of options like 5D dust combos, impossible dust, Greed Sever 5S 2H Vapor Thrust Javelin loops (get used to doing 2P, 5Sclose, 2H VT for that). j.S is great for crossups, j.K is good for air-to-air, and if j.H or j.D are blocked, you can either jump again, or cancel into air stun edge games/Stun Raise up close. Also don't forget about Tiger Knee Stun Raise (2147+D), it's extremely useful as an overhead.

[Shinobi!]

Hi WaffleZ. Thought I would stop by and help some with your game. Keep in mind that you may/may not know some of the things I'm about to tell you, but keep this as a checklist in the near future. 1) Be aware of what your normals are and what they are capable/not capable of doing. 2) Learn what normals can be stringed into each other for combos and blockstrings. You may know this as a flowchart. 3) Learn what your special moves (Stun Edges/Stun Dippers) do and why they are used for. 4) Practice your knockdown combos first. Anything that goes into 2D or Stun Dipper. 5) Think of ways to startup pressure again on okizeme (the state of where your oppenent is getting up) such as CSE (236D) or ACSE (j.236D) 6) Start looking into what's high (j.H/5D) and what's low (2K/2D) to start up a simple mixup game after a successful knockdown. 7) This is when you can start maximizing your damage from successful mixups/pokes w/o the help of FRCs. One good example would be 2D to FB Sphere (214D after 236D) combos. 8) Advance your current damage/lockdown/blockstrings with FRCs. Anytime is a good time to practice FRCs when you are comfortable in knowing your character enough. Again this is just a general checklist as I currently do not have the time to go into further detail of your actual game. I play MB too and its normal for you to import things you've learned from MB to GG if you played MB before GG, but its an entirely different game and one that is not too focused on the P button lol.

[Nakkiel]

Tiger-knee CSE (2369+D) for instant Pressure. Also j.D into Air CSE or Stun Raise Forcebreak. Stun Raise increases not only your protection, but also decreases the range of an opponent's attack.

Also, 6H can cancel into itself, 5H, 6K, and other things for nice little guardstrings to crank the guardbar.

Also don't forget that Air Stun Edge FRC resets your jump, so you can jump and do another Stun Edge or Air CSE or Stun Raise or j.D or whatever. Sometimes, I never hit the ground...just watch out for Volcanic Viper and other anti-airs.

When working with pressure, if you do 6H further away, it'll still hit, so don't worry about getting up close so much. 6H staggers and gives you plenty of options like 5D dust combos, impossible dust, Greed Sever 5S 2H Vapor Thrust Javelin loops (get used to doing 2P, 5Sclose, 2H VT for that).

j.S is great for crossups, j.K is good for air-to-air, and if j.H or j.D are blocked, you can either jump again, or cancel into air stun edge games/Stun Raise up close.

Also don't forget about Tiger Knee Stun Raise (2147+D), it's extremely useful as an overhead.

6HS cannot cancel into itself, you have to wait for it to recover before you can do another one. Also the stagger and blockstun is too short to make that a viable option. However, it does cancel into a good array of Ky's moves.

Stun Raise is a projectile and has no guard level, a crouching opponent can block it. However, most people tend to THINK it's an over-head, so you can imagine the dirty tricks you can play on people

[shtkn]

Not to toot my own horn, but read the beginner guide. Its stickied. No copy paste (thanks iPhone!) so look for it

[Nakkiel]

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3539

huzzah

[WaffleZ]

Hi guys, after 2 months or so, I'm back. Here's a little check-in to tell you guys about the progress with my Ky. Okay, so I finally figured out the FRC. I'm not good at it, and I can't really use it for anything other than 236K > FRC > Greed Sever > 5Sc > 2H. And here's the problem, I can't get the Vapor Thrust out after the 2H, and I can't land the 5Sc > 2H consistantly, and the times I do get it, I have to mash the S and H buttons. (To be fair, I mash B and C while doing the jBC jBCs in Nanaya's combos in Melty Blood, so whatever works for now, I suppose...) I'm ashamed to say that I finally discovered what the Lightning Javelin is, so I can end my dust combo with that, but unfortunately, I can't FRC well enough or catch the opponent well enough to set up for the 5Sc > 2H > VT loop. Also, I can't do Lightning Smite. It is beyond me. I've spent countless amounts of time 2Ding a CPU in Training mode, then mashing 222 S as fast as I can, or doing a dust combo, ending with Lightning Javelin and then trying 222 S. I've read over the beginner guides and watched countless tutorials on Ky for GGXXAC. There is little explanation beyond the moves that need to be done, my fingers can't seem to execute these actions well enough, however. Is this normal when first starting? If so, how did you guys overcome it? I didn't have these kinds of problems with Melty Blood. <_< I'm tired of seeing: GS > 5Sc > 2H > Standing still looking like an asshat while my opponent gets up. Oh, and I've discovered the value of Ky and his coconuts. I guess Smash isn't the only gaming community with private jokes. (Beer cancelling and steak.) I'll get new videos up over the weekend. But based on the information given, can anyone provide a helpful diagnosis to my problem? D:

[Blade]

Hi guys, after 2 months or so, I'm back. Here's a little check-in to tell you guys about the progress with my Ky.

Okay, so I finally figured out the FRC. I'm not good at it, and I can't really use it for anything other than 236K > FRC > Greed Sever > 5Sc > 2H.

And here's the problem, I can't get the Vapor Thrust out after the 2H, and I can't land the 5Sc > 2H consistantly, and the times I do get it, I have to mash the S and H buttons. (To be fair, I mash B and C while doing the jBC jBCs in Nanaya's combos in Melty Blood, so whatever works for now, I suppose...)

Don't mash, but you should know the properties of S and H Vapor Thrust. S has good popup on counterhit and should be the main source of your Javelin loops since it's lower than H Vapor, H Vapor is useful for most 2H or midair situations or as a high or somewhat unsafe anti-air, Lighting Javelin FRC followup keeps you in the air longer and gives you Stun Edge or Airdash/Jump options if you need it to be safe.

The hardest gatling for Ky I had to learn was 2P, 5S(close), 2H, H Vapor to continue his Javelin loops, just keep practicing.

I'm ashamed to say that I finally discovered what the Lightning Javelin is, so I can end my dust combo with that, but unfortunately, I can't FRC well enough or catch the opponent well enough to set up for the 5Sc > 2H > VT loop.

Javelin should only be used as part of combos or in Air-to-air situations and only then when you can FRC into something else otherwise just falling back down for normal Vapor Thrust is ideal. Also, S Vapor tends to work best from the ground, and in corners the FRC appears to come out sooner but it's the same, just do something like S Vapor>Javelin FRC j.S S Vapor>Javelin so that you don't have much trouble... (if you have AC+ turn on Easy FRC and set it to 5 Frame window to see where you need to do the FRC if you don't know, the active frames turn blue to make it easier...then turn it off when you get it down).

Also, I can't do Lightning Smite. It is beyond me. I've spent countless amounts of time 2Ding a CPU in Training mode, then mashing 222 S as fast as I can, or doing a dust combo, ending with Lightning Javelin and then trying 222 S.

It's 222H...sorry if that was somehow misunderstood...it should be in the AC+ movelist now. Best for any knockdown and even long distance knockdowns though the damage doesn't seem like much, it adds up if you do it enough.

I've read over the beginner guides and watched countless tutorials on Ky for GGXXAC. There is little explanation beyond the moves that need to be done, my fingers can't seem to execute these actions well enough, however. Is this normal when first starting? If so, how did you guys overcome it? I didn't have these kinds of problems with Melty Blood. <_<

I'm tired of seeing:

GS > 5Sc > 2H > Standing still looking like an asshat while my opponent gets up.

Oh, and I've discovered the value of Ky and his coconuts. I guess Smash isn't the only gaming community with private jokes. (Beer cancelling and steak.)

I'll get new videos up over the weekend. But based on the information given, can anyone provide a helpful diagnosis to my problem? D:

You can try GS>Sacred Edge>5Sc>2H>H Vapor for something different...or even Lighting Sphere Forcebreak. Be creative.

Ky is one of the fortunate characters in the game to not have to rely on one specific methodical style of gameplay. He can zone, he can poke, he can pressure, he can play keepaway. The only drawback is his damage isn't as great in most situations but if you can outwit the opponent, that's not so bad.

[Zieg]

TL;DR: Skipping the Ky-mumbo-jumbo-combo-this-combo-that. Welcome! Hmm...incidentally, I too, am a new Ky player and play Smash(Except I'm a Melee Smasher).