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balFrog

Transitioning from SF4 to Xrd, does a lame/turtle playstyle exist in GG?

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Hi, '12er here. USFIV on Steam has been a miserable experience so far, so I'm looking to switch over to GG Xrd. Tried the demo and it seems pretty fun.

 

Thing is, I enjoy playing lame, and after watching this year's Evo GG side tourney I don't see anything in GG that resembles lame. I mained Dictator/Guile/Boxer in USFIV, and as far as I could tell no one in GG resembles their playstyles.

 

Faust and Slayer both look interesting, May seems like she would be fun as well. But none of these characters, if any at all in the roster, seem suited for turtling.

 

To clarify, I'm not asking who to main, I'm just looking for characters that can play defensively.

 

Also, what can I do to prepare for Xrd? Play X2 #Reload? Watch Airdash Academy?

 

EDIT: Well, this helped a lot. Any other articles like this?

 

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/designing-defensively-guilty-gear

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You can play defensively.  Sin is looking kinda Dictatory. Generally GG characters are versatile enough to suit whatever style you may have, or not have.

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Xrd doesnt really have a dedicated keepaway/zoning character. Every character wants to get in, get a knockdown and get their mixup running. Faust and Axl are probably closest to what you want but they're still very offense oriented. 

 

Finding people to play reload or AC+R with would be ideal for learning GG. Airdash Academy also does a good job of explaining the series, with much of it still applying to Xrd. 

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When you say you enjoy playing "lame", and say you play Dictator, Guile, and Boxer, I'm taking that you prefer space control and good positioning over mixups and set-play. Naturally, certain characters will lean more towards a particular style than another. But in GG, you decide how the character plays, the character does not decide how you play. A lot of players like to get-in and run mix-ups, but that doesn't mean that's all there is to do.

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When you say you enjoy playing "lame", and say you play Dictator, Guile, and Boxer, I'm taking that you prefer space control and good positioning over mixups and set-play.

 

Yeah, this is precisely it. I mean, I understand how SF4 characters work that are mix-up heavy (Seth, Oni, etc), but I prefer characters that allow me to dictate (hah) the pace of the match with their spacing tools.

 

I guess I will start with Faust and probably dip my toes with every character. Baiken looks cool, hope she makes it to the next version of Xrd.

 

I'm still open to comments and opinions btw.

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Venom , he is a pretty space control oriented character. Plus he has charge moves :3

As stated before Faust and Axl are good picks too

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Guilty Gear's downback is walk forward, walk backward. When it comes to anti-air, most characters will have a 6P/2H that can beat deep-ish jump ins, but everyone has an airthrow that can be used in a variety of situations depending on the character's jump speed/height.

 

It sounds to me like you should be playing Faust in Xrd, though you should give everyone a shot and see who you like best. If you start playing +R, there's a number of characters that can be played defensively.

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Ramlethal might also be a good choice. Insane space control.

 

A good way to think of GG (and incidentally KOF13) characters in SF4 terms is (AE) Akuma, IMO. He has the tools to zone people pretty well to really really well depending on matchup, but the payoffs aren't there. Compare to Ryu whose space control is a tad worse but who is more durable and zones with 70 point fireballs and heavy buttons (70-100 damage a pop) instead of Akuma's 60 damage ground fireballs and 40 point air fireballs and light air moves. Of the two characters, Ryu is the one that is better equipped to win with damage from just zoning.

Akuma has to use his tools to force the opponent into an uncomfortable position so as to create an opening, and then capitalize on that opening by landing a sweep or going in - his combo damage on standing foes is high and the vortex was scary, so that's the payoff taken care of.

 

KOF and GG characters all want to get in and maul people, pretty much. But how they get in and maul people differs - some just go in your face, make you guess high or low until you guess wrong (Millia, basically the whole KOF13 cast), some just hammer at you until you lose your nerve and press a button while eating chip damage from their pressure strings - oh, that was a throw, sorry, I guess it's time to smash your face in (Sol, Zato). Some are like Akuma and use space control tools to force that opening from an opponent in the neutral game.

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I don't think this is true. If that was the case, Justice wouldn't have been able to function as a character in AC+R.

I myself have spent a majority of several matchups zoning and turtling with Venom, keeping myself mobile, and choosing select spots to go in.

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It's risky to avoid conflict at all costs in GG.

 

Sometimes running away is the right move, and sometimes zoning is effective.  I think Millia vs Pot in AC was one where Millia would rather run around at neutral and be without meter than get hit once, though if given the chance you'd want to be aggro enough to keep the meter while looking for your opening.  Negative Penalty is crippling, but you can still do enough things without meter that if you got Negative Penalty you're not guaranteed to lose.  It's a lot harder to deal with than "we're going to make you take more damage if you get hit to punish you for running away".  It also makes more sense since losing your meter hurts your defensive options.  No FD means you can't prevent chip damage, GB+, or air block.  No DA hurts your escape options.  No reversal supers.  Even still, you could get Negative Penalty, land a gold burst, and still have options.  You also still have reversal throw and backdash options, as well as everything IB gives you, and whatever your character's tools are (might have a good DP).

 

 

Anyway, this game does a lot to reward aggression and does enough to discourage tactical loitering that you might have a hard time with a "run away" strategy, even if it's viable.  Characters like Ky, Axl, and Venom do well by playing defensive until they can obtain initiative (usually via knockdown), and then play a very calculated offense that looks passive, though generally everyone wants to score knockdown so they can play offense.  It's just that these characters look like the type to run away, but they tend to perform better by staying in the right position to keep control, which might be a little further away than some other characters.

 

They're not in Xrd, but in Accent Core you could run away effectively with Bridget, and Baiken had meterless attack options while in block stun (everyone else has to pay 50%) which she can use to try to escape pressure.  If you don't like the lockdown and screen control options that are available now, you might like these characters a bit more if they're added as DLC or offered in later games, or might like to try playing them now in +R while waiting for Xrd.

 

 

Also, while the mechanics may have changed in Xrd, some characters are allowed to run away more than others before they get Negative Penalty.  Potemkin and Zappa were built around needing to use their defensive options a lot, so they can back dash a lot more than a character like Chipp.  Negative Penalty also builds up more when you're trying to stay at full screen distance, so you can backdash a reasonable amount of times if you're backed into a corner without getting Negative Penalty whereas back dashing just a few times at full screen will give it to you.

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So, this R.I.S.C. meter...

 

From what I can tell (based on the responses in this topic anyway), this game really doesn't want you to downback. But then... isn't the tip passed to most new players "why aren't you blocking"?

 

The "classical" advice is, "turtle up, block, slow the pace down as much as you can, and wait for your opportunity." Sometimes if you don't know what you're doing (i.e. matchup unfamiliarity) you might be blocking for quite some time before you find a spot that looks good.

But you're telling me that if I do that same thing here, the other guy is just gonna get free counterhits on me when he opens me up?

 

 

Somebody please tell me that you get meter while you block for Faultless Defense/Guard Cancel attacks, or that blockstrings are short on average, or that the guard meter takes some time to rise...

 

I'm assuming time-outs aren't really a thing either, then?

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You do get meter for blocking. Instant blocking will get you even more meter for doing so.

Blockstrings can be quite long, character/situation dependent. Some characters are better at raising the guard meter than others. Note that Faultless defense stops the guard meter from rising.

Time outs are sometimes a thing. On occasion. Once every now and then, etc.

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So, this R.I.S.C. meter...

 

From what I can tell (based on the responses in this topic anyway), this game really doesn't want you to downback. But then... isn't the tip passed to most new players "why aren't you blocking"?

 

The "classical" advice is, "turtle up, block, slow the pace down as much as you can, and wait for your opportunity." Sometimes if you don't know what you're doing (i.e. matchup unfamiliarity) you might be blocking for quite some time before you find a spot that looks good.

But you're telling me that if I do that same thing here, the other guy is just gonna get free counterhits on me when he opens me up?

Guilty Gear still very much requires blocking at times. Not blocking under pressure will get you killed, same as any other fighter. Nor does it punish successful blocking; if the opponent never hits you, it doesn't matter how high your guard bar got cranked. What is does do is discourage normal blocking indefinitely. It wants you to smartly use instant block, normal block, faultless defense, and any other options you have to actively disrupt the opponent's pressure. You don't "wait" for the opportunity to escape/counter, you create it yourself.

There are few situations where avoiding being put into a situation where you have to block is paramount (ex. being knocked down by Zato-1, because odds are you won't block the mixup), but Blazblue and Persona have those moments too.

The best way I can put it is that Guilty Gear rewards an active defense.

I honestly like Guard Bar/RISC better than any of the alternatives tried by Blazblue (Crush Trigger is meh, Guard Primers basically gave some characters an eventual UB, and Guard Libra was awful).

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Alright.

 

If I'm reading this right, all grounded attacks (to use Persona terms) are "Air Unblockable"? (Unless you use Faultless Defense).

 

So that thing where Narukami anti-airs me with 5B (ha) everybody can do legit?

 

 

Also, this "Blitz Shield"... It sounds similar to "Guard Impact" from the Soul Calibur games?

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Not all of them are Air Unblockable, but most are.

 

Guard impact is more like a 3s parry, the most recent game I can think of with a similar mechanic is Chaos Code's Tactical Guard (it's the same thing really, meter cost and everything). You tap two buttons and enter a counter state for 25% meter, if the opponent hits you their attack is REJECTED and they get in hitsun for a bunch of time and you can attack them, while in REJECTED state the opponent can use Blitz Shield though (really I believe that's the only thing you can do), and counter an incoming attack, also it looks silly.

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Alright.

 

If I'm reading this right, all grounded attacks (to use Persona terms) are "Air Unblockable"? (Unless you use Faultless Defense).

 

So that thing where Narukami anti-airs me with 5B (ha) everybody can do legit?

 

Actually, P4U is kind of an exception here for not having a barrier shield to prevent air unblockable attacks.

 

GG and BB are the same, you use barrier/faultless to prevent UB attacks. If you get anti-aired in GG, it's your fault for not using barrier block.

 

Hence the "Active defense" people are talking about here.

 

GG is a more grounded game than persona anyway. You won't jump around mindlessly. 1f throws are one of the reason here

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So, this R.I.S.C. meter...

 

From what I can tell (based on the responses in this topic anyway), this game really doesn't want you to downback. But then... isn't the tip passed to most new players "why aren't you blocking"?

 

The "classical" advice is, "turtle up, block, slow the pace down as much as you can, and wait for your opportunity." Sometimes if you don't know what you're doing (i.e. matchup unfamiliarity) you might be blocking for quite some time before you find a spot that looks good.

But you're telling me that if I do that same thing here, the other guy is just gonna get free counterhits on me when he opens me up?

 

 

Somebody please tell me that you get meter while you block for Faultless Defense/Guard Cancel attacks, or that blockstrings are short on average, or that the guard meter takes some time to rise...

 

I'm assuming time-outs aren't really a thing either, then?

 

No, you can block as much as you want. The RISC gauge is not there to dictate how you play. In other games, the system will punish you for continually blocking. In GG, you are not punished for blocking too much. Instead, your opponent is rewarded for breaking your defense, if he breaks your defense.

 

Not all of them are Air Unblockable, but most are.

 

Guard impact is more like a 3s parry, the most recent game I can think of with a similar mechanic is Chaos Code's Tactical Guard (it's the same thing really, meter cost and everything). You tap two buttons and enter a counter state for 25% meter, if the opponent hits you their attack is REJECTED and they get in hitsun for a bunch of time and you can attack them, while in REJECTED state the opponent can use Blitz Shield though (really I believe that's the only thing you can do), and counter an incoming attack, also it looks silly.

Blitz Shield is Soul Calibur's Guard Impact.

 

Chaos Code's Tactical Guard is similar to 3s's parry. Blitz Shield is not like 3s's parry.

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No, you can block as much as you want. The RISC gauge is not there to dictate how you play. In other games, the system will punish you for continually blocking. In GG, you are not punished for blocking too much. Instead, your opponent is rewarded for breaking your defense, if he breaks your defense.

 

I don't like this take on it. Someone is rewarded for breaking someones defence by getting damage, regardless if the RISC bar is cranked or not. In a way it is kind of punishing you for blocking too much, since even though you can block indefinitely and requires your opponent to break your guard, if you have your RISC bar cranked by blocking a lot you are going to be in a less favourable position than if you chose to use other defensive options. Which is basically a long winded way of saying blocking too much is more punishing than other options. It's like saying you are not punished from running away from your opponent because negative penalty only drains your meter, so you can still run away indefinitely.

 

On the other side, i like to think of this more from the attackers point of view. RISC bar always allows a favourable outcome from pressuring the opponent, so even if you couldn't open your opponent up, if you at least get in a good block string and crank the bar a bit more than it was, it is still a gain from the attackers point of view even though getting damage is the more preferable option.

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So, this R.I.S.C. meter...

 

From what I can tell (based on the responses in this topic anyway), this game really doesn't want you to downback. But then... isn't the tip passed to most new players "why aren't you blocking"?

 

The "classical" advice is, "turtle up, block, slow the pace down as much as you can, and wait for your opportunity." Sometimes if you don't know what you're doing (i.e. matchup unfamiliarity) you might be blocking for quite some time before you find a spot that looks good.

But you're telling me that if I do that same thing here, the other guy is just gonna get free counterhits on me when he opens me up?

 

What you're talking about is why movement and spacing is so vitally important to playing this game; why block things at neutral when you can avoid them?

 

When people are telling you to block, they're usually talking about situations where you have virtually no other options (ie: Zato pressure, mixups in general), not necessarily while at neutral. While you definitely don't want to get hit trying to approach your opponent, you also don't want to focus too much on one method of approach.

 

I'll admit this is probably one of the harder aspects of learning how to play this game, but it's one that you can learn with practice and pertinent observation. Watching match videos and comparing them to your play goes a long way in helping figure this kind of stuff out.

 

One of the reasons I like this game so much is because even if you took out NP, it's not that conductive to downbacking on the other side of the screen, anyways. You have so much more to worry about at neutral than the options downbacking defends against that it's not that appealing an option most of the time. This doesn't mean that you can't turtle/play lame, it's just that you have to be more aware to do so.

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guess precision on defense kinda valued as much as precision on attack, Instant Blockin' may prevent Guard Bar from gettin' cranked.  Seems rather balanced overall, as there's some sort of risk involved every time a "button is pressed" as opposed to kinda little to none if holdin' back/down back 

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Instant Block does not prevent Guard Bar / RISC for being built up.  Faultless Defense does.  Instant Block is free to attempt and gives you meter when successful, while also reducing block stun and the amount the opponent is pushed back from your block. 

 

Faultless costs meter to use (some over time when holding it and some amount when something is actually blocked), increases your block stun, and prorates your meter gain for a short period of time, but it prevents chip damage, prevents the Guard Bar / RISC bar from increasing, and pushes the opponent out farther than normal.

 

 

I like this system because you don't always want to use one defense option over another.  When all you have is IB (like Persona fighter), you always want to IB in any situation where it's possible, assuming that you wont get hit for attempting it.  Compare this to a system where IB has benefits (so you want to be doing it), but there are situations in which you'd rather use Faultless (preventing chip damage so you don't die, pushing someone out to make them whiff so you can punish).

 

 

Anyway, while there are some character specific nuances to offense once you've gained initiative (dealing with a DP vs dealing with a good backdash vs dealing with a tall character that allows fuzzy mixup), defense is just as character specific as the neutral game.  You don't have to know as much about the other character's tools when you have them blocking or you're comboing them, but you damn well better know what they can do in neutral and when they have initiative.  Dealing with the other player's offense is often as nuanced if not more nuanced than the neutral game.  Jam's 6H probably wont hit you very often in neutral, but you damn well better know it's +3 and has some lower body and throw invul if she's pressuring you with it in the corner, or you're going to get CH just looking for an opportunity to interact and play the game.

 

Remember, hitting the other guy means you win, but not getting hit means you wont lose.  GG just happens to be made well enough that the game is fun and aggressive while trying to avoid getting hit.

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