[P4AU] Aigis vs. Ken Amada and Koromaru

[mixedmethods]

Please use this thread to discuss and contribute to the Ken & Koromaru matchup. This post will be updated as information arises.

The Neutral Game

• Long Range

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• Mid Range

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• Close Range

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Offense

• Your Offensive Options

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• His Offensive Options

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Defense

Your Defensive Options

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His Defensive Options

• He has very few, as his DP is a terrible reversal. For 50 meter, he can try GCA/GCR, Thunder Reign (Fatal Recovery), or Ultimate Cross, his Awakening super.

  Thunder Reign is high-risk and shouldn't catch you unless you're sleeping. Ultimate Cross loses to Orgia backdash if he goes for it on wakeup.

• If you block his DP and have 25 meter, it's a free kill: video care of Black-Syklone.

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Shadow-Type Notes

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Match Summary

[mixedmethods]

My notes from the General Discussion thread, updated/tweaked a bit.

Collapsed: Huge wall of text.:

First: KOROMARU IS ALWAYS A MID STRIKE. It doesn't matter what it looks like; the dog is a mid. Block based on Ken, not the dog. If you're being pressured, then look at Koro occasionally: once Koro hits recovery frames, Ken has to reset somehow.

He has four overheads: AoA, j.A (hits three times, all hits are overheads), j.B, and j.2B. AoA is 32f start-up and has an incredibly telegraphed animation; it's also Fatal Recovery. You shouldn't be getting hit by this. He goes airborne for his AoA, so in pressure, AoA > OMC is possible if he can't crack you open. His only lows are his sweep and 2A, which can't be canceled into itself (nor can he do 2A > 5A or 5A > 2A). Generally, as long as he times the dog right, his pressure is a true blockstring, but the "skeleton" you're looking for is 2A > 2B(1) > 5B -- it's punishable only if the dog isn't out, but if you see a Ken using this frame, don't mash. His 5AA is -10 on block, so you can disrespect that; his 5AAA is +1 or -17 depending on whether Koro is on play. If he's doing any of this without Koro, he's begging to be killed. 5B can be swept under if he's poking mindlessly.

In Orgia, you can backdash on wakeup to get out of his set-ups, primarily meaty 214C oki. You can also use Orgia backdash to avoid his Awakening super if he mashes it on wakeup; it's 7f start up, so you can actually bait it and beat it. Don't hang out at superjump height -- you risk getting DP'd with a supercancel into Fire Breath.

He lacks a good anti-air in exchange for great jump normals. If you see him whiff 5B, he's trying to bait a jump-in -- on whiff, the move has a second hit. 2B is useless as a reactive anti-air because the first hit is a mid and airblockable; our j.B should stuff it before he gets his head invuln frames or even the first hit out. It can tag you out of jump start up if you're close, so backdash and punish if he likes to hit buttons. His j.B is big and stupid but if you can deal with Shab's j.B, then you can deal with his. His j.A is his best option against jump-ins, as it's fast, has a big forward hitbox, hits three times, and lets him maintain his spacing. In Orgia, tri-jump or use j.AB. He doesn't have the life to take too many risks, particularly when you're in Orgia, so if you catch him once, you should be taking off 4k, which is roughly half his health. (8.5k.)

5D and the rest of the D series don't save you from blocking depending on the set-up and/or how smart the Ken is. If the dog takes the hit, Ken can jump the counter, poke it, or block it. If Ken triggers the counter, the dog can rush in. Strangely, j.2D actually hits (and bodies) Koromaru's 2C (which low profiles a lot of things) at certain spacings. If the Ken is any good, he won't commit to an attack himself while Koro takes care of the shield (and vice-versa), but if he's bad, then he or the dog will trigger the counter and both of them will eat the attack. Ken's moves have too much recovery.

2B will hit Koromaru out of anything he's doing, which leaves Ken vulnerable if he's hit a button. You can also style with Vulcan Cannon SB if the dog and the kid are separated.

j.C is still Jesus. Ken's j.A can stuff it, but only if you're reckless. As for his jumps, low-hitting j.A and j.B beat his j.A, j.B, and j.2B; his j.B is slow enough to lose to our j.C. If he's going air to ground, you can beat him air-to-air with j.A or j.B; if you're the one going air to ground, j.B will hit him and the dog.

The biggest nuisance is Charge Thrust (the two-hit move where he sends out his spear), as it Fatals and can hit airborne opponents. If you see him go for Charge Thrust raw, it's one of two things: (1) the player doesn't know what they're doing; or (2) you hit a button and he's trying to punish you. You can generally jump it on reaction; if he's using it without a hit confirm from 5B, he's asking for you to put him out of his misery. The A version is death (for him) on block; the B version is slower but harder to punish with our range issues; SB is safe. If he gatlings into the follow-up persona attack on block, you have a free 5A > jc to take one of his cards.

If he uses Mediarama without sweeping you, you can 2B or, you know, IAD in and j.B him. The recovery is awful. It's not going to heal him much, but it does heal the dog.

He has range, but he needs the dog to cover his recovery -- this isn't a Narukami 5B issue. If he's pressuring you, just block low unless you see him jump or go for AoA. He has a throw but it has unique properties; I detailed it on his wiki page. Otherwise, just block if he's applying pressure. He wants you to hit buttons so he can punish you. Sooner or later, he has to reset pressure. The dog does have recovery -- the closer the dog is to you, the more plus Koro is on block. If he does 214C/D (flying Koro ball) to cover his approach, 2B stuffs that, as he has to wait for the dog to recover. Also, he has no dash cancels, so everything Ken does has to be covered by the dog or gatlinged into (relative) safety. If he's just hitting buttons, punish him. You can close gaps quickly, so don't let him think whiffing 5B is safe.

Fire Breath C can be rolled; D and SB are multi-hit. That move starts from Koro's position, not his, so unless the dog is on top of you, you're going to see the C variant. If he lands DP, that's his best super-cancel; Thunder Reign is Fatal Recovery and the timing on the cancel means you usually tech out of the super (which is Fatal Recovery); Ultimate Cross/Awakening super is also finicky.

VR covered 214C oki and what it loses to, which you can find in the Oki/Mix-ups/Gimmicks thread in Ken's forum.

If you're pressuring him, make sure the dog is offscreen or with Ken; if Koro isn't with Ken, Ken can take a hit to mash C and the dog will hit you from behind, resetting the situation in his favour. Koro is invuln when he's being removed (i.e., when Ken is holding D). Yes, the dog is annoying but he's not Asterius. Ken has bad options on defence, so if he has meter, watch out for his Guard Cancel -- it's big and knocks down if he counter hits with it. He may try Thunder Reign or Ultimate Cross as reversals, but those are high-risk options, particularly the former.

I don't see why this MU should be particularly bad. Yes, he has great jumps and very good pressure. We also have great jumps, as well as fantastic mobility and bullets. His left-right is very obnoxious (but fun to do) and the dog is a pain, but two Orgia combos can kill him, or, hell, if you see him commit to something with enough recovery, Goddess Shield. I killed a Ken with Spear after he whiffed a 2A and he died outside Awakening. It's a new MU, possibly annoying, but it's not Narukami or Minazuki.

I forgot to mention this: j.2B helps kill the dog.

Fire Breath does not hit full screen, so if you're fully in the corner, it will whiff. It has no invuln of any kind.

You can sweep under 5B but it's very spacing and Koro dependent.

He can heal himself but the health restored to Ken is negligible. Outside of sweep combos, he'll try to heal by sending Koro to you with 5C/2C, as even if you 2A Koro, the amount of Koro gauge regen he'll get will usually trade in his favour.

2AC/Hop > j.B leads to a cross-up in which even Ken won't know which side he'll land on.