mixedmethods Report post Posted November 6, 2014 Use this thread to discuss the Narukami matchup.This post will be updated as members contribute. Round Start:... Neutral:... Offense:... Defense:... Punishes: On Block:...On Reaction:... Character & Shadow-Type Specific Notes: Combos:...Mixups:...Shadow-Type:... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TerraMaki Report post Posted November 7, 2014 Helpful tips from Justice7541 on the matchup... - A Lion (the lower, faster one) is -4 on block. You can IB 5A for a punish, otherwise he can DP. If he does start DPing after blocked A Lion you can just start blocking and punishing his DP for big damage. Just make sure you run under him when he DPs so he can't super cancel it into Ziodyne to bait your punish. - B Lion is neutral on block and his pokes are faster than yours so don't press anything. You can try to roll or DP out but he can do Raging Lion feint (hold B during B Lion) to bait that. Unfortunately there's no guaranteed way to escape the B Lion for this reason. Yes, it's stupid. Yu is a stupid character. - Yu is a dumb character and it shows. There's really no safe or easy way to escape his mixup. Fuzzy jump OS does help a bit versus Heroic Bravery mixup (throw/frametrap/DP bait) but unfortunately it's still a really strong mixup and there isn't a clean way out of it, again because Yu is a stupid character. Again, i want to reiterate that Yu is a fucking stupid character. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mixedmethods Report post Posted November 11, 2014 Calling Narukami a "fucking stupid character" doesn't change the fact that we have to fight him, unfortunately. His pressure, if the opponent is doing it even halfway right, is generally very safe, and he can simply delay attacks to frametrap you. Learning the defensive OSes is helpful, as something like 5A > Raging Lion A can be covered by Fuzzy Jump. BananaKen has discussed Narukami a bit on his ask.fm page and his advice is to block and look for patterns, try to OS if you see the opportunity, as Narukami really is difficult to challenge. It's worth noting that if a Narukami does a dash 2B in pressure, he's checking for the OS (2B is not jump-cancellable on block now), which is your cue that you're dealing with a legit Narukami rather than the The Netplay 50/50: ZIOCAR or Raging Lion type. 214B/Raging Lion B can be feinted, which sets up a safe-jump after a knockdown and also gives Narukami a really nasty cross-up in which he passes over you and then hits with either j.B or j.2B on the other side. From what I read in the Narukami thread, midscreen Lion B doesn't yield anything unless it's a Fatal Counter (so don't get Fatal'd, as then he gets 4k). He gets a safejump after Bravery B/command throw at midscreen but nothing else, so the more threatening options are Lion B feints into cross-ups and the rest of his arsenal. There are times when you can simply DP Narukami out of his pressure but it's high-risk and your options are going to be influenced by whether or not Narukami is particularly dangerous at that point. Once he hits 50 meter or has you cornered (or both), he's much more threatening. Issen/Lightening Flash (his new super) allows him to whiff punish you from full screen (at the cost of damage reduction) but it lacks strike invuln and only has projectile invuln on the SB version; it's also Fatal Recovery. Of course, if he combos into it, he gets great corner carry, which returns us to the original issue. (Sigh.) Honestly, I feel like you have two options: try to DP (which is either suicide or gets him the hell off) or just be patient. His pressure is very safe, but sooner or later, he does run out of gatlings. When he certain moves is important. Take 2C: it Fatals on CH, but his options decrease the later he throws it out in a string. The forward dash cancel is negative on block, and if he backdash cancels he's retreating, so that's one cue. Expect to see 5C > 2C or 5C > dash cancel early in a string, since 5C is one of his best starters and goes into "lol Shabrys life" damage. Heroic Bravery is ... not pleasant. After the A version, he can go into Lion B or Lion B feint > j.(2)B. Heroic Bravery A itself is -5, but since he's going to cancel that, I need to lab whether or not IB affords any escape options. Heroic Bravery B is the command throw, which has the same proration as his normal throw and goes into the same combo (or so I've been told by Narukami mains) -- because he dashes before the throw, you should be able to hop + j.2B to send him flying, or at least upback. Some people find the animation similar to his 5C dash cancel, but since he's silent during the 5C dash cancel and Bravery B always has an audio cue (and, frankly, it does look different, at least to me), it's worth trying to spot the difference by spending time in training mode; 5C > 236B is possible. On the bright side, while Narukami is still strong, he also lost certain things. 5B can now be swept under, so if you bait it out of him, you can get a CH sweep into an easy 3k + knockdown + set-up as a punish. If you anticipate it at match start, step back and hit your own 5B -- if you score a Fatal, you know the Narukami is hitting buttons. All versions of Zio will cost you a card. Zio C is free meter if you hit D and jump or IAD over the actual projectile, as it's pretty negative; Zio D is hugely plus on block and is a pressure reset due to the limited range. If he uses Zio in the air, you can try to dash/roll under and 2B him for a nice Fatal. (Needs testing, but should be possible, distance depending.) His dive kick (j.2A) also took a nerf and is now negative on block; of course, he won't be jumping in with that. His j.B(B)/j.2B are really good, there's no getting around that, but you can still limit his options by setting up lasers, 8C, or 2Bing him if he gets sloppy on approach. In my experience, a lot of Narukamis are used to ruling the sky with their j.B, so be ready to anti-air him and generally frustrate his air-to-ground approach options. At that point, you have a better chance of baiting out a 5B or 2B for a punish, or he may try Zioing you to keep you from using Asterius, then chase one of his fireballs in. If you time it right and/or distance depending, you can 2C him for Zio (particularly air Zio) for 2.2k CH + dash in. His 2B is not something you want to challenge unless you can bait him into whiffing it; it's fast, hits twice, and it's got a great hitbox. If you do bait the whiff, punish hard. According to VR-Raiden, if Narukami attempts to DP a Massive Slaughter + j.A > j.B set-up, the DP will always whiff, giving you plenty of time to punish him. (The hitbox will never connect due to the angle of his DP.) As for his DP, if you block it or get it to whiff, quickly cross him up to ruin a possible super cancel if he has meter; ideally, the super cancel will just whiff and you have plenty of time to punish him for it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TerraMaki Report post Posted November 12, 2014 haha I guess your right. I got curious and went to test what can you get off of an IB against Heroic Bravery A if they cancel into the basic Narukami options(A Raging Lion/Slide) and it wasn't much. In fact normals don't seem to come out fast enough between and you can't dash after it. Brutal Impact A (214214A) even gets beat out by B slide. However, IB into Brutal Impact A beats A Lion clean out and every Narukami jumps at the chance to do it. If your not in awakening it seems you're better off just IBing the follow-up and punishing, maybe just in general honestly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Angry Guy of DE Report post Posted November 20, 2014 Well even on IB you probably can't get 2B out to beat Raging Lion A because 2B's head invul is frames 7-23 (Based on wiki) so most likely you are getting hit within the 6 frames where your head invul isn't active on 2B's start-up. Also considering IB against Raging Lion A which is stated to be -4 on block with the A version, so with IB it is now -7. Slab's fastest normal 5A and 2A are both 7 frame start-up so he's back to neutral by the time either move becomes active. The A car move is -10 so with IB is -13 so it is able to be punished at least with 5A or 2A as the next fastest ground normal 5B is 13 frames as well...Having 5A and 5B just 1 frame faster on start-up would make this a lot better. Though that's strange...Brutal Impact shouldn't lose to D Car/Slide since from frame 1 it is unthrowable auto-guard. You might be getting hit while buffering the 214214 input. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TerraMaki Report post Posted November 20, 2014 We're talking about inputting it right after you IB Heroic A, Right? D Slide just lasts longer than Brutal Impact A's actual invul period (1F-35F), It also has a period of Invul (on his chest?) from F6 to F42 which I'm guessing evades the axe and hits you during recovery. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mixedmethods Report post Posted November 21, 2014 Yeah, Chest invuln screws Brutal Impact because of where the axe hits, despite the attack being Body attribute. Akihiko's Weave eats Brutal, for example. Brutal Impact is high-risk/high-reward, and definitely not worth the risk unless you're sure Narukami is going to do Raging Lion A or have nothing to lose since you're going to get Fataled for an attempt. I've had better luck when they've started auto-piloting and/or can't OMC -- 5C dash cancel seems to be a good place against less-aware Narukamis, but it really shouldn't be working; it's just "lol netplay" or MU unfamiliarity, not respecting Shab's meter, etc. D slide is Fatal Recovery. If he throws it out, expect him to DP (low level) or OMC (smarter!) if you block it to avoid retaliation. C slide isn't Fatal but same deal, although he can super-cancel C slide on hit or block, although fewer frames of Chest invuln. EX slide has no Chest invuln but cancels into a variant of his DP on hit, which I assume he could use to avoid a punish unless you hit him out of the actual Swift Strike EX. Granted, if the Narukami is approaching solely with ZIOCAR and Lions, you're not fighting Narukami. Even if the most you get from IB is a reset to neutral, it's better than nothing. Yes, Narukami wins at neutral, but any chance to escape the corner is helpful. As BananaKen said, with Narukami, sometimes you just have to block and look for patterns. Some are content to exhaust their gatlings, while others go for a ground throw the moment you demonstrate you're willing to block. Breaking his cards is also good, as if he's down to one, he's either going to attempt a Gold Burst or have to be more cautious about throwing out Izanagi because persona break seals most of his arsenal. With Izanagi gone, he loses Swift Strike, Zio, Ziodyne, and Cross Slash, leaving him with his normal gatlings, Raging Lion, and Lightening Flash (Fatal Recovery). Once Narukami is down to his last card, I usually start looking for the Gold Burst -- Narukami needs meter to stay safe and to get his best damage, so some will try to Gold Burst early (so Burst will regenerate and they can use that meter + OMB). (This makes a grab set-up riskier if they know they can wake-up Gold Burst to beat the unblockable, however.) If you're confident you can bait the Burst (particularly by turning it into a Blue Burst), that's one asset of his down. Once Narukami has 50 meter, I treat him like Minazuki: you will be whiff-punished from full screen if you attempt anything, and you cannot activate Titano without a knockdown, so wait for him to burn it on OMCs or EX skills. If he tries Ziodyne (block) > OMC, try to focus on his feet so you can determine overhead or low. Because of how AUB 2Bs work, he can't 2B you for airblocking, which may be the better option. At certain spacings, you can actually beat Ziodyne C with Challenge Authority if you react to his animation and the flash in time and if he's within Challenge Authority's hitbox (god bless you, enormous hitbox). Not likely to happen unless Narukami really thinks he can punish you breathing with Ziodyne and you're decently close to each other, but it's an option. Theoretically, Brutal A should work to hit him out of the OMC run after Ziodyne, but I haven't ever tried it. Ziodyne > OMC is 100 meter to get in, and he has better ways, so ... yeah. EX Asterius attacks are a godsend in this MU, since everything Narukami does breaks Asterius. Buffalo Hammer's quake doesn't do much damage but it stops (ground) Zio spam if you get the quake to hit him in recovery, which gives you some space -- he can't immediately chase after the fireball. Tangentially, while Narukami is bad in the corner, he's no joy midscreen, either. Watch out for j.B cross-up > land 2A, the same kind of tricks Shab uses. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
