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Madness4455

Dustloop Fantasy Story Fights

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Didn't Hakumen admit Jubei will defeat him? He is always called the strongest being on the planet.

He is called the strongest "creature", meaning that Jubei is the strongest beastkin on the planet. Hakumen said that to a completely stressed Jubei who was losing hope and viewing himself as a weakling. Hakumen said this just to help encourage Jubei to fight the Black Beast. Jubei brushed that off, saying "Don't give me that bull." Probably saying this because Jubei doubts he could stand up against Hakumen. He is stronger than current Hakumen though.

Hakumen is the leader of the Six Heroes. Trinity told Terumi in his arcade run that Hakumen is the strongest member. If she called Hakumen the strongest member, then that is heavily implying that Hakumen is most definitely stronger than Jubei.

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We don't really have a measure of Jubei's full strength, but you can infer Hakumen's stronger based on the fact that Jubei got bodied by the Black Beast(lost an eye remember) while Hakumen was at least able to survive against it, no worse for wear.

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We don't really have a measure of Jubei's full strength, but you can infer Hakumen's stronger based on the fact that Jubei got bodied by the Black Beast(lost an eye remember) while Hakumen was at least able to survive against it, no worse for wear.

True. That is definitely true.

Hakumen can fair against the Beast but sometimes I am skeptical on his Time Killer technique. As Rachel stated, Black Beast can be killed. Part of me wonders if Hakumen can actually kill it with that said technique. If I am right, Ragna and Nu have the lifelink with each other correct?

In order kill those people, you have to kill them at the same time. Since Ragna and Nu merge as the Black Beast, meaning they become one with each other, so I can theorize that Time Killer could possibly do the trick though.

It is unknown if the technique actually worked on Hazama. It probably got rid of Terumi's influence inside him.

But yeah it is sort of implied Hakumen at his prime is possibly stronger than Jubei. He is the leader of the Six Heroes and Trinity said he is the strongest member.

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@Cerotech

 

 

Bro, I like Makoto because she is the most badass female out of the trio along with Tsubaki and Noel because Makoto doesn't need a power boost like those two and is funny but not as funny as Bang or Taokaka. This is me being honest and not being a fanboy like DBZ fanboys.

 

Yes she displayed that in Remix Heart but is it displayed or mentioned in story mode? No, not really sadly. All Mori is doing is showing her amazing strength as a beastkin, nothing else. A lot of game mechanics of a character's abilities are never showed or mentioned in story mode. They are likely put their to make the character more appealing or perhaps gain a better advantage over the other. Makoto is not really a fighting strategist at all nor is she resourceful. I know she packs a punch but she doesn't think in a fight nor does she have a plan to win.

 

Oh so she wants Tsubaki to notice but does Makoto again think about this? What if Tsubaki found her and has multiple NOL soldiers surrounding Makoto? Does she ever think about that? Tsubaki could've had some NOL officers accompanying her or whatnot. Not only that but Hazama and Relius would've set a trap on her if they can since she was out in the open. Relius Clover and Hazama both knew Bang and Bullet were working together in the Sector Seven section. If they somehow knew what the hell those two were doing, there is no doubt they'd know about Makoto's whereabouts. Makoto knows better than that. I can understand she cares dearly for Tsubaki but has she forgotten two of the most dangerous villains of Blazblue who attempted to stop her from reaching them in CS?

 

My bad. Her ars magus aptitude is average. Doesn't mean she knows or could demonstrate a lot of it. Her physical status is off the charts because she is a beastkin which I am already aware of. Haven't I not said "Makoto is physically stronger than Bullet"? and the vent ars is nothing compared to some of the ars certain characters use. I'm sure every NOL soldier can use that kind of ars on certain missions. Bullet has some unknown ars magus as stated in her bio where she generates flames and thermal energy from my perspective. It's possible her ars magus aptitude is higher due to more training and fighting. Nu-13 scanned Bullet and said Bullet's combat ability is level B+ in Bullet's arcade. That could mean something alright.

 

Her "worthwhile" experience is heavily implied in her bio that she has been through many wars. That is possible evidence that Bullet went more fights than Makoto which I doubt gets into many. Tsubaki told Jin that "she doesn't seem like the kind of person who would hurt anyone". When she being picked on by other students, Makoto doesn't bother to fight back, only taunt or evade their assaults. There is no evidence that she has fought violently in the past. All we know is that she used to hate humans and doesn't want to deal with their crap. However, you of all people should know how bad Mori is at writing because a lot of things in Blazblue are not properly explained no does he care to explain. He only leaves pieces and hints.

 

As for her being a better fighter is simply your opinion. It's possible Noel is powerful than both of Tsubaki and Makoto. It's badass she doesn't rely on power boosters like those two but that doesn't mean she is better than both of them. Makoto had some degree of potential in CS which characters have stated like you said but Relius Clover suddenly dropped the "I'm going to rebuild her soul however I can" attitude and decided to focus on "I'm going to become the new Amaterasu and rebuild this world." He even ignored Makoto in the Sector Seven section ending and Makoto comically said, "Aww. He didn't even noticed me" or something. To me, it's like Mori just dropped Makoto's potential. Since her potential was dropped, it's likely character overstatement which is done in a many anime shows if you watch or had experience with anime. And didn't I say feats can change and crap? Mori could stupidly rewrite Makoto's feats and make it where she beats Izanami. Feats change over time in fiction and become bullshit and sometimes are worthless. I mainly go by advantages and disadvantages over a characters' special ability or power. For example: Azrael vs. Terumi. Azrael's advantage is strength and Terumi's advantage is his Nox Nyctores that stirs up emotions and is smarter than Azrael. I go by that to see who has the biggest advantage over the other.

 

 

 

To answer for Madness4455, Izayoi isn't that strong like Nu or Mu(Noel) and as for " he could carry on a fight" . It's merely speculation over a beastkins' fighting abilities. Beastkin are no doubt stronger, faster, and possibly have more stamina or endurance than humans. But it's possible humans know ways to best beastkin.

An analyst's work is never done. If you only deal in facts, then you leave yourself open to be blindsided by possibilities you chose to overlook. I'm not afraid of a little egg in my face, especially if the author (in this case, Mori) is the one throwing it. And I appreciate that you stated your reasons for liking Makoto; mine happen to involve deciphering the roundness of her character that others tend to overlook, seeing all the threads that can connect to her future, even if said threads lead to her past instead. The way I see it, she has a greater role in affairs than many realize, especially if the villains have to act just to keep her out of their affairs. That she does more with less is icing on the cake. But enough about sentiment; it's time to deal with some arguments.

 

The problem with this first one is that you act like the events of Remix Heart are weightless to canon, despite the fact that its elements (namely Mai and Taro) were referenced in Chronophantasma, and that several elements of the Phase 0 novels were also integrated into Chronophantasma proper. While we filthy Westerners may not get the whole story without aid from fan translators (like Emma, bless her soul) or an Arcsys localization team, does that mean we should ignore it until it appears? Nein. The same applies to gameplay - the goal of a game designer, if story and gameplay are to coexist, is to have the story elements present in the gameplay, and vice versa. Compromises are to be expected for the sake of balance, especially in a competitive fighting game, but I get the suspicion Makoto is more... integrated between them than many of the other characters due to having fewer combat-viable story breakers to excise.

 

And having a fighting strategy in real time against the enemy is not something that is easily depicted in any plot without slowing the fight to a crawl - no plan survives contact with the real world, after all. And besides, if Makoto doesn't think or have a plan to win a fight, why would Jin trust her to go first against Tsubaki in Chronophantasma Chapter 14? Then again, if she was primarily trained in an athletic and combat-centered regiment in the Academy, if she doesn't think or have a plan to win, how did she graduate on time?

 

As for Miss Tsubaki, yes, Makoto wants to draw her attention. But doing so with a regiment at Tsubaki's back borders on the realm of stupidity, don't you think? An Intelligence officer without something resembling common sense isn't going to remain an Intelligence officer for very long. As for Hazama and Relius, ja, she hasn't overlooked how dangerous they are, and in Hazama's own CP Arcade, not only did Hazama start the fight ("Perhaps you should share Tsubaki's fate."), but when affairs went sour she chose to cut her losses and run. And yet, she doesn't run into Hazama in any Story in Chronophantasma proper. He seems to have this dreadful habit of thinking that a person's power is what makes them dangerous despite the fact she caused his plans to crumble once and nearly managed to do so a second time. As for Relius, we really don't need to discuss him except for the fact that his primary goal requires using Kushinada's Lynchpin and Rettenjo for his own ends to backstab his compatriots and usurp the Master Unit in the aftermath; if he can advance those plans on the spot, then even Makoto's soul is beneath his concern. And tell me: neither of them ran into her in the Chronophantasma story (in fact, she went after him to keep him off Bang and to buy time for Ragna, Noel and Celica to thwart Take-Mikazuchi), whereas they were both upon her in Continuum Shift proper, where they had the ability to witness Takamagahara's observations. Relius might be able to make out her soul like a sore thumb, but even his sight has limits; as for Hazama, what Intelligence work do we see him doing for someone besides himself?

 

I wanted to nullify your "Makoto can't use ars magus" argument first and foremost, as that was factually incorrect; glad to see you accepted that. As for Bullet, keep in mind Nu's post-combat commentary puts her at "declining below C" - keep in mind Amane was set to B and Azrael to A, meaning that if they were as combat capable, Amane would be A- at worst with Azrael at S. I won't argue where Makoto ranks, as neither Nu nor Lambda talk about her combat grade in any capacity (CP might change this for Lambda - we need some translations to know for sure), but we do know that in CS Lambda graded Bang at A due to his Nox Nyctores. Worth keeping in mind.

 

Yes, we know Bullet works as a mercenary. But the "many wars" she has attended aren't exactly elaborated upon. Also, keep in mind she was benched due to injuries in a previous mission when her squadron went to Naobi and got slaughtered. Those "many wars" could be small skirmishes or Ikaruga-grade for all we're told, with opponents ranging from small fries to fully-armed squadrons, and there's no telling how long she was benched, either. Hopefully that gets more fully fleshed out, as I can't place Bullet's combat prowess with such scant details and obscene variance. It's also why I can't wager who'd more reliably win between her and Makoto.

 

As for Makoto avoiding a fight, you have to understand a couple of things during the Academy days. First, if Jin is relieved that Makoto chose not to pick a fight, and that she could rightfully say the bullies couldn't do anything to her, then beating all three of them up by herself is easier than smacking a baby (not that she'd stoop that low). Second, and arguably more importantly, there was this long-standing stereotype that beastkin are animals, and a cornered animal is very prone to baring fang and biting back; if Makoto were to retaliate, she'd be proving it right on top of getting herself more than a three-day suspension. I suspect that if you add Relius' little revelation on top of that, that incident was more of the same for her, and something she just couldn't run away from outside the Academy. Of course, as I said earlier, it all ties into her pre-Academy backstory, which we know next to jack about. The degree of risk her family came under? The issue of racism-induced atrocities? House Hazuki's hand in aforementioned atrocities? The source of her scholarship? Kagura seeing more in her than the big titties? All up in the air, but with how fiercely she's willing to protect her friends, I'm willing to risk my reputation on at least constant high risk and at least one bout of ethnic cleansing.

 

And you're saying that it's only my opinion that Makoto's a better fighter than Tsubaki and Noel. In Slight Hope, as I said, Rachel explicitly recreated the appearance and battle abilities of one of the girls, and Makoto pretty much wipes it out without a moment's hesitation. She also lays out both of them in CS Arcade - in a row, I should remind you - and Noel was knocked out so thoroughly that Hazama basically had no choice but to intervene lest Takamagahara reset on him. Makoto and Noel don't fight each other from there on out, except maybe in some sparring session we're not privy to. Tsubaki is steamrolled in CP Arcade and Story, and her uncharacteristic behavior towards Makoto in her own CP Arcade suggests she may have been intervened upon by Izanami during that encounter and Chronophantasma Chapter 9 - the latter being explicitly demonstrated with Izanami's shadow alongside Tsubaki. I suspect that without said intervention, Tsubaki didn't stand a chance against Makoto.

As was once said in a different series, "power alone is not enough to counter evil. You must possess an even stronger will to guide that power towards good". Even with her newfound spine, Noel is still easily bent out of shape for all the power she possesses as the Successor to the Azure - if she had the kind of will to use her power right, would she have ceded the privileges to summon the Master Unit as easily as she had, deception notwithstanding? As for Tsubaki, her will is unbending for what she believes is right, but she also grew up in an ivory tower and was led to believe the Imperator is always right; it's not until the events of Continuum Shift that said beliefs came into question, which reveals that she lacks the will to define right and wrong for herself in the face of the conflict of interest. On the other hand, Makoto has faced these paradoxes and stood firm despite overwhelming pressure, but also judged when her own well-being superseded any short-term gain.

 

But I honestly have to question you now, as you act like Relius dismissing Makoto in Sector Seven was a sign that Mori was throwing all of Makoto's potential away. You see, that's the kind of mistake committed by hacks like Stephanie Meyer; I've known people who got mad and nearly ragequit the BlazBlue story when Litchi jjoined the NOL, which suggested that he was doing that exact same thing to her, and yet here we are with Kokonoe's CPX story investigating her connection with Roy, who is an important part in Litchi's own personal saga. Just like with that long-standing loose thread, Mori may believe that vanilla Chronophantasma may not be the proper time to expand on Makoto's pre-Academy backstory. Who knows - what if we get a deeper glimpse of it during one of the other extra stories? When I made my last post, I didn't know that Bullet was going to get her own CPX story, and that could make her more bearable at large. I can say with confidence that Makoto's story will be explored because, and let's be honest, there will be no victory for the protagonists if the world goes right back to tearing itself a new asshole the instant Izanami is deposed, and ending the race war could go a long way towards preventing that possibility; with Kokonoe of questionable morality and Valkenhayn and Jubei possibly on their way out, it has to be a beastkin from the younger generation that leads the charge, and with Taokaka too carefree to take any lasting responsibility and the story too far along to believably introduce another beastkin of significance, the matter has to be resolved by Makoto herself.

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Let's move to a new fantasy battle. Bullet vs. Makoto will have to go on a hiatus until Bullet's side story comes.

 

How about Hakumen vs. Jubei?

Hakumen would win since he is the leader of the Six Heroes.

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Hakumen would win since he is the leader of the Six Heroes.

Just because you're a leader doesn't mean he is the strongest. It is based on leadership skills, not always strength. But I do agree though that Hakumen would win.

Many fans misunderstood Jubei's title. He is called the Strongest Creature on the planet. By creature, it heavily implies he is the strongest beastkin alive. Jubei is stronger than current Hakumen. We don't know how strong Hakumen is at 100% but we can tell he is probably terrifying at his prime since Ragna was scared shitless of Dark War Hakumen.

Trinity labeled Hakumen the "strongest" member of the Six Heroes. That would mean Hakumen is the strongest member of the Six Heroes. Possible evidence is when Jubei was distraught in the beginning of Hakumen CS story, some people say Hakumen "admitted" that he wouldn't stand a single chance against Jubei. However, Hakumen is most likely trying to give Jubei hope in defeating the Black Beast but doesn't say it in a decent way at all and Jubei declined this, telling Hakumen not give him such bull. Another thing is that Valkenhayn, old he may be, he is still strong as hell. Current Hakumen definitely gives Valkenhayn a challenge.

When you fight Hakumen in Valkenhayn's CS story and you lose, he admitted that he couldn't lay a single finger on Hakumen. He even lets Hakumen go in CP in defeating the Imperator, refusing to get in his way. This probably indicates that Valkenhayn wouldn't want to cross blades with Hakumen at all. Valkenhayn can keep up with Hakumen but for a limited amount of time until he is overwhelmed. A lot of the Six Heroes members praise and are cautious around Hakumen, even Terumi himself.

Rachel even told Ragna that if Hakumen at his full power fought the Imperator, he would have a hard time. So Hakumen could possibly beat Izanami in a fight or defeat her. Maybe equal.

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A tad off topic, but a while back someone mentioned that Bullet pocesses the least potential for story out of the three newcomers (I'm assuming that means Azreal, Bullet and Amane)

 

I completely disagree. 

 

Isn't it obvious Tager is Bullet's former captain?? Tager is the survivor from her squad that was witnessed being dragged into Kokonoe's lab and the sole reason Bullet is even a part of CP in the first place. After Bullet confronts Kokonoe on the subject in the arcade, Koko ordered Hibiki to keep Bullet away from Tager and to not let Tager know about Bullet. The event that Bullet's squad was killed by Azreal was when Kokonoe and Relius were doing Science and summoned a Black Beast (which also started killing everything). Of course, Azreal might not have been a part of this event, but considering he remembers her uniform, its plausible. 


 

Bullet has connections to Tager, Kokonoe, Azreal and Relius Cover in this regard.

 

She has plenty of room for character growth. In fact, she potentially has the most out of the "three". (Completely ignoring poor Kagura)

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Who is stronger? Platinum or Taokaka?

Probably Platinum. Platinum has traded blows with Terumi and held her own. Tao was more or less told to fuck off by the same dude when she encountered him.

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Taokaka stood her ground against Hazama in CP. Let us be clear, Platinum kicked Taokaka's ass in the CS arcade stories. It wasn't a serious fight though since Taokaka is made for comic relief but she is strong no doubt. Platinum was trained by Jubei and Taokaka is trained by Torakaka. Jubei is stronger than Torakaka since he is the original.

Taokaka loses because she is hungry which sounds like a excuse. If Taokaka was serious or improved, she may beat Platinum without effort. Taokaka might increased to Jubei's level someday but for now, Platinum is no doubt stronger.

She knows some degree of magic and could ensnare Taokaka into a trap like her throw move where she binds you in a brief magic seal and has a floating bell appear out of nowhere and slam into you. Platinum's fighting style is more like trickery with magic and outwit Tao and beat her there.

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https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TIVSepYjbD2ET9_UjNDxE7aGknndKtmiFx236OvYgB8/edit

 

Pretty much a few days ago me and group Persona/Guilty gear acquaintances had a debate on twitch stream chat. One argument being Nothing beats Aigis because she's ridiculously dumb in Orgia. One of the BB guys mentioned I-NO's crazy pressure game. The point is I got bored and made a document out of it. 

 

 

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https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TIVSepYjbD2ET9_UjNDxE7aGknndKtmiFx236OvYgB8/edit

 

Pretty much a few days ago me and group Persona/Guilty gear acquaintances had a debate on twitch stream chat. One argument being Nothing beats Aigis because she's ridiculously dumb in Orgia. One of the BB guys mentioned I-NO's crazy pressure game. The point is I got bored and made a document out of it. 

 

I-No wins because she's got a guitar and 3 inch platforms I'm completely jealous of. Aigis is just some janky-ass robot. My bias for character design has no bearing on this discussion.

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I certainly don't want more threads of fantasy fights on Zepp. It's already in an awkward spot, but is fine since it's basically fanfiction. But I want it in one spot. So this thread will now encompass all of the stuff DL covers, not just BB.

 

Have fun. Sorta.

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I'm afraid with Murakumos and Valentines being based on each other, it's gonna have to be Noel vs. Elphelt.

I guess but Dizzy and Noel have similar pasts and possibly the same birthday.

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Just leaving some GGxBB ideas I've been floating around. Feel free to answer the ones you can explain:

-Faust vs Litchi

-Slayer vs Valkenhayn

-Potemkin vs Tager

-Chipp vs Bang

-I-No vs Hazama

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Just leaving some GGxBB ideas I've been floating around. Feel free to answer the ones you can explain:

-Faust vs Litchi

-Slayer vs Valkenhayn

-Potemkin vs Tager

-Chipp vs Bang

-I-No vs Hazama

Slayer would probably beat Valkenhayn since he's both immortal and much more experienced. Potemkin without his limiters would win hands down. Chipp vs Bang would probably be in Bang's favor because of the nail, except he's a goddamn potato and doesn't know what his weapon does. I-No because completely biased opinion :U

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