AC: Okizeme

[Destin]

What is the standard post full screen Icespike knockdown oki? Double H fish hope for high low IAD mixup? If they jump D bubble if they jump out block? Or should I be doing HK fish? I wouldn't care that much but it seems she will have to do similar things in +R, so I might as well learn it now.

[zaeris]

What is the standard post full screen Icespike knockdown oki? Double H fish hope for high low IAD mixup? If they jump D bubble if they jump out block? Or should I be doing HK fish? I wouldn't care that much but it seems she will have to do similar things in +R, so I might as well learn it now.

I'm not sure about others but my preference has always been double HH fish into dash jump j.s if they jump and it hits confirm into j.p j.s double jump j.s j.d/j.hs. If it's block instead I go for j.s .jp AD j2d on ground. Of course that is me expecting people to jump from oki from full screen and thats usually the case. However if I get someone who doesn't jump and wake up I would go for double AD land and 2k.

[Destin]

I'm not sure about others but my preference has always been double HH fish into dash jump j.s if they jump and it hits confirm into j.p j.s double jump j.s j.d/j.hs. If it's block instead I go for j.s .jp AD j2d on ground. Of course that is me expecting people to jump from oki from full screen and thats usually the case. However if I get someone who doesn't jump and wake up I would go for double AD land and 2k.

Can you catch jumpers from full screen with dash jump S?

[excelence]

Not just j.s, Dizzy can catch jumper from full screen with running air grab.

[Nehle]

What is the standard post full screen Icespike knockdown oki? Double H fish hope for high low IAD mixup? If they jump D bubble if they jump out block? Or should I be doing HK fish? I wouldn't care that much but it seems she will have to do similar things in +R, so I might as well learn it now.

I find that summon + getting in can be real hard timing wise. Sometimes it's easier to just go for an IAD mixup right off the bat without summons backing you up.

Or if you really want to summon, you're going to have to accept a weak(er) oki, but at least you can start a strong positional / neutral play.

[Destin]

I find that summon + getting in can be real hard timing wise. Sometimes it's easier to just go for an IAD mixup right off the bat without summons backing you up.

Or if you really want to summon, you're going to have to accept a weak(er) oki, but at least you can start a strong positional / neutral play.

That makes sense.

[Horokei]

I did some research on Dizzy iad j.2S but don't know where to post it. I put it here, since iad j.2S is pretty important in okizeme and mixups.

This is list of characters on whom iad j.2S is working, working bad and doesn't work

Work: Ky, Eddie, Axl, Dizzy, ABA, Potemkin, Justice, Venom, Johnny, Jam, Robo-Ky

no comments here

Work badly: Baiken, May, Testament, Slayer

hard to combo after. iad j.2S, j.H - j.H can miss, timing required

Doesn't work: Sol*, Chipp*, Anji**, Faust, Kliff, Zappa, Millia*, Bridget, I-no**, HOS*

* Doesn't work if they not blocked. If they hold 1, j.2S will hit

** Hit them if they not blocked. If they hold 1, j.2S will miss

j.2S always hits any opponent as meaty on wake-up, if they hold 1 on wake-up.

I think this'll be actual at AC+R too.

[Nehle]

I like it when people research

So this is just "naked" j.2S right? or did you try it with a laser fish as well, cause that's gonna force them either have a crouching block or hurt, and I think that's bigger for most of the "won't hit" characters.

But I've also noticed that if you want to do the good ol' IAD j.H, land, j.P fuzzies, the j.H can miss some chars if they only crouch without blocking. It's a sneaky tech!

[NecrosAnger]

Horokei, you have to redo that list

I know for a fact (and tested it just now) that on Ino, Anji this should always work. I tested it quickly again on Millia, Ino, Anji, HOS. Except HOS I was able to do both on 1 block and not blocking crouch (3). I was also holding 1 or 3 the whole time to avoid anything fuzzy.

Set up used was into corner throw, IAD j2S.

I believe the problem you had for missing is because you didnt hit with the bottom hitbox of j2S. Probably by the time you could hit opponent sprite, only front part of j2S was left active. Or you didnt IAD low enough :D

[Horokei]

Set up used was into corner throw, IAD j2S.

Try naked iad j.2S. I tested with lowest iad and do j.2S ASAP (recorded and used playback with dummy Dizzy while testing crouch and crouch block with every characters)

Also I said that as meaty j.2S can hit almost any character. You can test it with something like:

throw, step backward, 214H~H, iad j.2S, laser, land behind opponent and 2K or iad back j.2S again

Edited December 13, 2012 by Horokei

[Destin]

What is your guideline that you are doing the lowest possible IAD?

[Horokei]

Animation

[Destin]

Are you using some sort of frame advance program?

I only ask because I am fairly certain I have gotten hits on some of the characters in ways you said couldn't be done.

[NecrosAnger]

Are you using some sort of frame advance program?

I only ask because I am fairly certain I have gotten hits on some of the characters in ways you said couldn't be done.

I wouldnt be suprised if neutral crouch hurtboxes had changing sizes. Certain standing neutral animations had that.

[Horokei]

Are you using some sort of frame advance program?

I only ask because I am fairly certain I have gotten hits on some of the characters in ways you said couldn't be done.

I did not use hitbox viewer or whatever.

If you can remember which characters can be hitted by iad j.2S, it'll be great.

I wouldnt be suprised if neutral crouch hurtboxes had changing sizes. Certain standing neutral animations had that.

Perhaps. But only characters I'm not sure about is Anji, Millia and Chipp. All other I had checked a lot. Anyway, I'll try to find mistakes when I got free time and maybe record some stuff.

[Destin]

I don't have access to the game anymore at the moment, but I will also go through and see what I can do to double check that list. That's the best I can do, it can be fairly difficult to get a lowest possible IAD.

[zaeris]

I don't have access to the game anymore at the moment, but I will also go through and see what I can do to double check that list. That's the best I can do, it can be fairly difficult to get a lowest possible IAD.

i think a good way to test is to put the cpu in crouch block and do a ice spike frx into iad j2s since that will usually needs to be perfect and will have the lowest iad

[Destin]

Why would that need a lower j2S?

[InWithTheAshes]

Greetings all. Allow me to introduce my - self: I'm Ashes, and I play this game in a place with a scene that's pretty much dead (The U.K.).

Now with that out of the way, I was going to ask: After a 2H/ 2D knockdown, would 214 H > P, IAD J.2S, J.H, 2K (First bite.), dash c.S, J.P work as a fuzzy guard set - up? I'd like some confirmation on it's effectiveness before I start using it within matches.

Also, could we compile a list of things people have posted here (This included if it works/ has not been previously mentioned.)? I would imagine it would be helpful to some amount of people if we did.

[Nehle]

Without doing any training mode checking with the actual timing I'm going to go ahead and claim that if it works out with the timing of the j.P > bite > j.H or whatever you have in mind after the j.P, the setup requires that they block the c.S standing and then immediately go into a crouching block. The only reason I can imagine the going from crouch to stand after blocking a 2k is that they would anticipate a throw - but then why would they block low immediately after they tried to counterthrow your throw? I guess maybe you could do some shenanigans with 5s > 2d to condition a low block after the 5s, but that is much slower than the fuzzy j.P will have to be.

If you can trick them into a standing position, just go for that 2k instead of 5s I guess??

I can see it maybe working against potemkin because his hitbox is fricking huge even when he is blocking low.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Nehle

[Kurokun]

Compared to j.H > land > rising j.P fuzzy guard stuffs (that are listed), this scenario feels a little weird (timing wise), mainly because it's done later, rather than earlier.

I'm finding that my dash c.S is hitting just as the 1st P Fish bite is going off, then the j.P hits as the 2nd P Fish bite goes off (stand/block setting).

j.P misses if low blocking continues after 2K > (1st P Fish bite) > dash c.S (crouch/block setting).

Visually, it looks like it could work.

Might need more opinions/observations from others (via testing) and maybe someone could try this out in a live match setting for data, as well.

I'd probably just keep using the regular fuzzy guard stuffs, though. Mainly because I'm familiar with the setups.

With the scenario that is listed, I'd probably just do one of the following instead:

• ... > 2K > whatever (combo, tick throw, pressure string)
  
• ... > 2K > shenanigans/gimmick/trick
  

[InWithTheAshes]

A small question: How many gaps, exactly, would you say most setups have? You see, I've been looking at doing things such as 2H corner knockdown > 214HP > Dash jump > AD J.2S/2K/Throw, which seems to be pretty gapless itself. However, after that, to get another mixup, I seem to only have one option each for both the high and low, them being bite > c.S > Fw.JC > Bite > AD J.2S>2K>Throw (high) and c.S > Bite XX 2D (2D connects almost at the same time as the bite) > IAD (slightly delayed for the throw) > Bite > J.2S/2K/Throw. The problem is, after recording them and trying to figure out potential ways to halt them, I found that these both indeed have gaps in them: Exploitable, counterable gaps: For the first, there is a gap between the c.S and second bite that allows the opponent to backdash (the timing for this isn't particularly difficult), then then throw out something to stop whatever happens next (including Sol being able to 2H counter hit ;_. For the second, while the J.2S ending actually seems pretty solid, for the others there's a gap where they can use something of at least five frames/a DP, and it will take me out. These aren't the only things I've tried, but all of them have problems such as these (it's actually usually that damned backdash second bite > counter hit thing).

However, something I've noted: These gaps are things that people would probably only know about if they did what I did and recorded them, before trying to see as to whether gaps are included. Which would lead me to wonder as to whether thae point would be to mixup not only with high/low/throw elements, but with what exact oki setup you're using as to prevent them from knowing which gaps are currently present (although that probably won't help if the gap is always the same/similar as with that backdash option. You'd also of course do this anyway, but I was wondering as towards whether this was the exact point of doing so), or to simply not let there be any counterable gaps within the setup while you do your mixup? I want to know if what I've been looking for while devising my setups (ie. completely gapless twice over mixups) is available or not.

Edited May 27, 2013 by InWithTheAshes

[Horokei]

I'm sure you can intentionally leave gaps in your pressure to beat mashing, backdashes and reversals. Gapless blockstrings for Dizzy require precious timing and often do not worth it.

Also I think backdash on fish is bad idea in general. Since Dizzy not attacking, she can punish backdash easily.

Also you can airdash twice. It's really good for mixups after iad j.2S.

As for 2H corner oki try:

2H 214HP, TK K Bubble, airdash, laser, j.H, land 2D, 1st bite, bubble pop, iad into high/low/double ad/throw - probably most favorite Kazuki oki from 2H.

2H 214HP, 421S, TK K Bubble (lowest possible only!), laser and arrow, ad j.P, j.P, bite, j.H, land, j.P/2K - harder alternative, creates 50/50 mixup, blocked fuzzy guard mixup creates another mixup situation with ad j.2S/land 2K. There is gap between laser and arrow if they IB or standing block, however there is almost no options to escape there

[InWithTheAshes]

... Shit I just realised I could indeed react towards the backdash and punish it. Unless maybe for J.2S, which I might have to do too early for it, intend to test that.

As for other gaps: These aren't frame traps we're talking about. They're wide enough for somebody to throw out something of, as I said, at least 5 frames to begin and beat whatever I have. Although, if they were mashing, there were probably tiny gaps earlier on that would catch that, so eh.

I knew Dizzy had double airdash, just sort of didn't consider it for oki that much .

And thanks for the setups.

Edited May 27, 2013 by InWithTheAshes

[Wild Candy]

Dizzy's probably one of the more versatile characters in Guilty Gear, that's for sure. I think Dizzy should be able to close some of her gaps with some of her summons. (The one's I'm thinking of being 214X or 421S) But what would I know.