Elphelt vs Faust

[Magaki]

Discuss the matchup here.

Summary

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Gameplan

Neutral game:
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Offense:
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Defense:
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Character Specifics

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[TheSixthFox]

For me this is a really hard match up. His neutrals seem to stuff out any move you try to poke him with. If you try to play defensively, it also goes bad. Rifle stance? He will open a Door in response. Loading a berry and tossing it? Door. He has an Air move where he comes at you very slowly with a spinning attack and it ignores your c.S. Your best best is to be in your shotgun stance. Pressure him down, don't play footsies, and don't play defensively. If you stay in shotgun stance, you can roll his pokes, and maybe land a S-S > S-HS and run him down into the corner. Either way, I feel like this is a terrible matchup.

[Sashi]

Yeah, it's a pretty intimidating matchup. His f.5S is ridiculous and so is his 2H, which is now a low. f.5S being special canceleable means that if you block, you give him a free item throw. Very annoying. His divescalple is essentially RC'able for free 'cause he can Faultless it at any time. Same with his air dash, 'cause he can just can do into his divescalple into Faultness Defense for a completely commitment free air dash. His 2P is ridiculous low profile, like our 2S. Add that to his door RC being a real teleport/mixup and he's a huge shithead in neutral.

I agree with the shotgun thing. Being able to roll past his retarded normals is very strong, and even the shot itself is great. If you keep him honest with rolls, you can start throwing out grenades while he's hesitating and start up your own game. If you're not in shotgun move, it's pretty hard to do anything about him if he just plays it safe. Try making his f.5S whiff so he can't cancel into item toss.

I think it's fine to play more aggressive than normal in this matchup 'cause his actual offense isn't that scary and his oki isn't nearly as obnoxious as someone like Milia. Meanwhile, if you get a good hit, you can get him to the corner easily and start up grenade/shotgun oki which is not very easy for him to deal with 'cause his only reversal type move is the baseball bat (his Dust), which isn't even a real reversal. Plus, you get to do good combos without using meter 'cause 2D combos into air normals on him and let's you do a full air combo.

EDIT: Real talk, they need to remove f.5S being able to special cancel. That shit is so dumb.

[Dullyanna]

I never had a problem vs fS, 2s usually beats it clean for me since it's fast and low profiles. 2HS is a different story but it's Faust ffs, sometimes you just have to block his shit in neutral instead of try to beat it.  Also remember that item throws on block are generally hella - and not always to his advantage stiuationally, so it's important to pay attention to what item comes out and react accordingly. Take offense when it's food or something slow, don't fuck around too much when bomb or baby are out, don't eat hammers etc etc.

 

I personally wouldn't want to use sg stance in neutral b/c the opponent comitting to dumb unsafe shit to get in is every half decent Faust's wet dream. Faust isn't dangerous because of pressure or oki, he's dangerous because his pokes and keepout are really goddamned good. It's generally best to play safe and take your opportunities when they come. Force him to make mistakes or take risks to get at you, or work him into the corner if he's staying defensive. If he's doing teleport shit to start offense or get out just chicken block it and make him waste meter or get punished. Also I'm p sure ass stab is still a real reversal and if you're unlucky enough it can do a shit-ton, so don't go crazy when he has meter.

[TheSixthFox]

I never had a problem vs fS, 2s usually beats it clean for me since it's fast and low profiles. 2HS is a different story but it's Faust ffs, sometimes you just have to block his shit in neutral instead of try to beat it.  Also remember that item throws on block are generally hella - and not always to his advantage stiuationally, so it's important to pay attention to what item comes out and react accordingly. Take offense when it's food or something slow, don't fuck around too much when bomb or baby are out, don't eat hammers etc etc.

 

I personally wouldn't want to use sg stance in neutral b/c the opponent comitting to dumb unsafe shit to get in is every half decent Faust's wet dream. Faust isn't dangerous because of pressure or oki, he's dangerous because his pokes and keepout are really goddamned good. It's generally best to play safe and take your opportunities when they come. Force him to make mistakes or take risks to get at you, or work him into the corner if he's staying defensive. If he's doing teleport shit to start offense or get out just chicken block it and make him waste meter or get punished. Also I'm p sure ass stab is still a real reversal and if you're unlucky enough it can do a shit-ton, so don't go crazy when he has meter.

 

I respectfully disagree with you. I almost feel like claiming that you simply haven't fought a good faust, but I can't be sure. Faust is good because of his pokes. That much is true, but your answer to them made no sense. If some one has amazing neutral, you don't play defensively. Thats the exact opposite of what you need to be doing. Staying back and letting faust throw out items, open doors, poke you down, and mix you up is pretty bad advice. You need to get in his face, period. He has bad defensive options. He has no real DP, an ok anti air, and overall no real way to get away from you, or get out of the corner. Btw using SG stance to get in from neutral isn't "Dumb unsafe shit" this is what baffles me. Like you've never even tried it. SG K has invul pretty much the entire time. The only weakness is you can be thrown. Roll his pokes, then SG-S. This isn't unsafe. +3 ISN'T UNSAFE, infact thats not just un-punishable, thats positive. Maybe go read some frame data before calling things unsafe. Nothing in the shotgun stance is unsafe, unless you trying to throw and you whiff of something. Faust waiting for you to mess up in neutral is his wet dream? then why are you suggesting people to stay in neutral. Rush him down. 

[Dullyanna]

I'm saying don't play recklessly beccause that gives him easy damage and it's what he's going to expect. SG limits your options, roll gives them a free hit or combo if they hit it on the 8 frames of non-invul recovery, your other options aren't exactly strong in neutral and you now have worse overall movement til you leave it. For pressure it's fine, but that isn't what we're talking about. He has ways to shut down every approach (I don't know how 6P or fdc jH are mediocre AAs but okay), many of which are very low risk if they're jumped or whiff. Carefully work your way in and pick the right opportunities as they come, don't just throw shit out or jump/IAD around in hopes of getting a knockdown or pressure. Going for guessy things like sg roll can work, but they can also go against you.

 

The most stable gameplan is play it safe precisely because his mixup and offense aren't anywhere near his poking/keepout game.  If he wants to or needs to get an offense started then that's great b/c he needs to put himself in a range where you're stronger to in order do so. For doors, you can reaction chicken block them and worst case scenario is he blows meter and you have to fd a bit and give him some pressure, best case you're out free and he wastes meter/gets punished. He needs to get up in there if he wants to do FD jK/214H stuff. Most items are reactable to keep him from getting pressure if you're paying attention and in a position to move.

 

If he's getting overly comfortable/predictable with things punishable by IAD, SG roll or w/e then fine, blow him up but don't make them your first resort. As time goes on Faust players are going to get better and better with their neutral and matchups, so trying to get a lucky knockdown isn't going to be a reliable way to win.

[Ventus Tatshima]

Using SG-Roll when dealing with doors or something is okay but that's only if you're dealing with low-level players/Trolls and their game plans are predictable as fuck. (Not saying you shouldn't use it when you can do it worry-free but still). Playing it patient seems to be the best choice to do in this MU

[TheSixthFox]

SG-K doors? no, not just doors? he's got huge pokes with long recovery. There's a few you can roll through to get in. I've also discovered the rifle stance is great on the defensive because he's so floaty. He has a hard time avoiding the shots.

[Magaki]

Too bad the debate stopped as it was particularly interesting in my opinion.
Here are a few things I would like to clarify:
-6P is a situationnal AA. You only use this move if the opponent is directly above your head. Main problem with it is that the hitbox isn't as great as it looks like (Especially horizontally) and the invul ends BEFORE the active frames. It pretty much means that 6P will only work in situations where you hit the opponent during their startup. It also only has 3 active frames.
Meanwhile, you got 5K which is Faust's main AA because the hitbox is great, it leads to a full combo on hit (you need a CH most of the time for 6P), it's fast and it got a small recovery. This is pretty much an AA that you can throw without really fearing to be whiff punished and it's the sole reason why you don't want to be in the air against him.
As for FDC jH, it's an air-to-air you mostly use against jump happy opponents and generally matchup dependent.

Here are my thoughts concerning the MU:

Neutral:
The most important point of this matchup.
Before I go into further details, there is something extremely important you have to keep in mind: The risk/reward ratio.
Yes, Faust's neutral is one of if not the best neutral in the game but there is something that he's not the best at: Conversions.
And that's thankfully, one of Elphelt's strongest point.

If he gets a fS CH, that's it. He will generally cancel into 236P afterwards. If you get a fS CH, you can pretty much land a 214K and get a knockdown. Heck, even if he blocks it, the 214K will be + on block with the right spacing so you can start pressuring him.
The same could be said about any other pokes like 2S or 5H that leads to knockdown too.

2S is great in this matchup. The reason why it's good is because you will often use this move to trade which will be in your favour thanks to the stagger. On block, you can cancel into 214K but he can 5P you out of it because 2S got an attack level lower than cS and fS. This is mostly a tool you will use if you want a trade.

5H is a great counter poke in this matchup and a pain for Faust to deal with. If you have 25 tension, he can't do much to deal with it at all so make sure you use it. You can go for 5H>214K if you're certain it will hit or 5Hx5 if you want to YRC in case it whiffs.

Those three tools are pretty much what you will use most of the time and your best options. Pineberry is nice especially with a 2P YRC but keep in mind that if you get hit by a dash fS or jH while you still have it, he gets a knockdown.
Of course you might be thinking: Why would you want to take some risks and trades rather than playing a much more patient game ? That's because if you're not aggressive, the Faust player will get an item that will allow him to rush you down safely and that's specifically what you want to avoid as getting back momentum afterwards will be particularly difficult.

As for doors, Faust will appear exactly where you were when he inputted it. It means that if you see him disappear, dashing will make any version whiff. You can high jump chicken block if you reacted too late too. Love (his j236P) can be annoying to deal with as it shuts down rush attempts. Generally, if they like throwing it out a bit too much, you will want to either do backdash 5H or jD but it's mostly something you will do with a read.

Basically: Make sure that you learn how to convert most of your pokes into a knockdown and, if possible, know RCs combos to get better damage and corner carry. Staying in his fS range isn't a big issue because trades will often be in your favour either thanks to 2S staggering or the fact that his fS is only level 2.

Defense:
Faust's pressure and offense are still pretty much like in every other GGs with 50/50s during oki and basic mixups if makes you block.

When he knocks you down, he can either go for IOH FDC jK(jump>j1K~S>jK) or 2P(hits low). No secret here, you either block it right or you use 236236D.

Once you're in the middle of a blockstring, his options are much easier to deal with and generally won't lead him to much. IOH FDC jK has to be done very close and considering that his pushback is quite important, it's not something he can really rely on. He can also tick throw into 214H (generally, after a blocked 2P or 2K) which is a command grab with more range than a normal one. He got 2 overheads, 6H and 5D but they are all reactable and very obvious.
Generally, you will either FD and jump out/whiff punish him or DAA. If he got an item with him, you will either have to respect him OR throw him. Usually the former. You might want to chicken block the meteor however because he will be able to go for IOH FDC jK/2P mixups otherwise.

Offense:
Time for Elphelt to shine.
First thing you have to understand is that Faust's fastest normal is 5P that comes out in 6f and he doesn't have a DP. This pretty much means that stagger pressuring him is pretty much free and should be abused because he needs DAA or 236236S to get out of it. He can use FD to push you out but you can just do fS>214K to get back on his face. Like I said, his fastest normal comes out in 6f. Unless you do it point blank, it's hard for him to stop you from mashing 2P afterwards and not eat a counter.
In case the Faust players likes FD a bit too much, go straight into 2H>236H>SG-P stagger pressure on block. Don't forget that every SG-P removes 5% tension on FD block and SG-P stagger pressure got a great tension gain which will allow you to make the next confirm do huge damage. Throw out some SG-S and SG-D too. His air hurtbox is huge so SG-S is great at preventing jump out.
That's the best matchup for shotgun stance pressure and getting out of it is a huge pain for Faust.

Also, it should be noted that 5D is strike invul on the first frame but the invul stops at the 11f for 26f startup. Most of the time, you will hit him out of it without even doing it on purpose.

Conclusion: A rather neutral-heavy matchups where Faust wants to get an item out ASAP and Elphelt wants to force trades that will often be in her favour. I would say the MU is actually 5:5 as both characters only got soft counters to what the other might do. Getting that first knockdown is VERY important. Much more than in other matchups as both characters have troubles dealing with the other's defense.

[Dullyanna]

Yeah I didn't respond b/c I only occasionally have access to internet and rarely have the time to post stuff. 2s is notable in this m/u because it low profiles Faust fS extremely reliably, and within its effective range it's a good poke against a lot of his options. Not so much against 2p but he doesn't get much off that except pushback after followup normals and an item. Also, like you said she can get a good conversion off 2s, esp with meter.

 

6P does lose upper body invul, but most of the time it trades Faust gets a CH combo anyways so it's usually in his favor. idk why I forgot to mention 2k but it low profiles and has a decent hitbox on the first hit, so it shuts down certain approaches and leaves you open to other AAs when trying to beat it.

 

I felt the need to mention playing carefully b/c it's a good way to scope out how the opponent uses Faust and how they deal with patient players. Also he has relatively low commitment pokes like 2P that don't really leave him open, so relying on a lucky knockdown isn't a good plan if you don't have a solid grasp on how to fight Faust. Bad item luck can screw you over pretty hard too.

 

Gdlk post though, most of my exp is from older games so there isn't a lot I could add for Elf aside from general ideas and lol 2s. Need more solid exp but I'm still deciding on characters orz.

[Jakestation]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efzfLloBlpg video has not processed yet, so HD quality is available 1-2h after this post.

 

Anyway this is our latest set with Wauhti. 

 

We play about 50/50 in this set.

 

This is far from JP level of gameplay, but it should be ok against americans and europeans.

Maybe there is something, which other elphelt players can take from wauhtis game.