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BB:CS Match-Up Chart


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#1 26 February 2010 - 03:11 PM

worldjem7
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THIS IS NOT A PERSONAL CHART.
THIS IS A CHART BY THE COMMUNITY, FOR THE COMMUNITY.

PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING.


The purpose of this thread is to discuss BB:CS match-ups in a mature manner so as to fill out a chart with accurate ratios for the benefit of the community.

I gathered information from the closest thing to a prior match-up chart (arcadia's magazine chart) and tried to interpret the disagreements as best as I could. BUT! That doesn't mean my views are correct, nor does it mean Arcadia is entirely correct, either, which is why I bring this chart to you, the community.

I request any and all knowledgeable players to help clear up misunderstandings and correct incorrect match-ups. You don't have to be good at the game to be knowledgeable, but more experienced players are more likely to be knowledgeable than less experienced players.




BlazBlue: Continuum Shift
Version 1.01
16 Characters

Match-Up Chart - 2010.11.02
Posted Image


The following chart counts how many kinds of match-ups each character has. This is used to break ties.

T.G.M = Total Good Match-Ups
T.E.M. = Total Even Match-Ups
T.B.M. = Total Bad Match-Ups

"Even" means "all even match-ups not including the mirror."

Distribution Chart - 2010.11.02
Posted Image



Previous Match-Up Charts for older versions





The rest of this post will act like a FAQ as I'm fairly certain most people on DL know what a match-up chart means.

  • Each match-up is determined by weighing each character's abilities and what they can do to each other assuming the two players are of equal skill level at high level play. This means that we assume that both players know of every single match-up and play each match-up in the most optimal way to win.

  • The match-ups shown are when two characters play 10 rounds against each other to see how many games each character would win. The number is multiplied by 10 to eliminate decimals (so 6.5-3.5 would be 65-35).

  • The Rating system has been changed.
    The rating is now determined by the average of all of a character's match-ups not including the mirror match.

  • Groups of characters on this chart are divided by uncommon large differences between two adjacent characters. This number can change from chart to chart, but will always be apparent. This is merely to make it easier to read the chart.

  • The "Difference" column shows the difference between the character beside the number and the character above the number. Bang has no one above him so he has no difference.

  • How to read the chart: http://www.dustloop....41&postcount=66

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions not answered on this post.
Also, feel free to PM me a message with your MSN or Skype if you want to discuss anything in real-time.

Edited by worldjem7, 05 November 2010 - 02:47 AM.


#2 26 February 2010 - 03:24 PM

farranpoison
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Awesome! Thanks for the time. Things definitely look a lot more even in CS. No more 8-2 matchups lol. Still makes me sad that Rachel is really close to CT Tager tier though... And Tsubaki is higher than Jin? I smell something fishy... >.>
Severin, on asses:

true, you can fit a surprising amount there OKAY MOVING ON


#3 26 February 2010 - 03:56 PM

GenoWhirl
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I must not QQ, Rachel needs me to be strong.

#4 26 February 2010 - 04:22 PM

kousaka
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good job!
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#5 26 February 2010 - 06:10 PM

Hotashi
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Heh... and I thought Tager was gonna make a comeback. It's very early, though, who knows. Nice to see Hakumen off the bottom also.

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#6 26 February 2010 - 06:11 PM

mAc Chaos
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Wow, Jin really got knocked down the list. I didn't think the small changes they made to him would make that big a difference. Still, he's got decent matchups.
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#7 26 February 2010 - 06:16 PM

farranpoison
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What I'm wondering is how Jin is so bad and Tsubaki so (relatively) high. Even better than Arakune (though the difference is slim). Last I checked, Jin players were doing fine and Tsubakis were getting their asses kicked. Someone care to explain?
Severin, on asses:

true, you can fit a surprising amount there OKAY MOVING ON


#8 26 February 2010 - 06:17 PM

ril213
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this looks good.
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#9 26 February 2010 - 06:38 PM

worldjem7
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What I'm wondering is how Jin is so bad and Tsubaki so (relatively) high. Even better than Arakune (though the difference is slim). Last I checked, Jin players were doing fine and Tsubakis were getting their asses kicked. Someone care to explain?


It could just be how I worked out the match-ups. In Arcadia's list, they ask top players about their characters, but don't require them to agree with each other. I just tried my best to think about why there would be disagreements and in what direction it should lean.

For example, hypothetically, let's say Jin vs Tsubaki. The Jin player thinks they have the 55 and the Tsubaki thinks they have the 55, so I would just put the match-up as even because both players feel good about the match-up.

Another example, hypothetically, let's say Tager vs Ragna. The Tager player thinks it's 35-65 and the Ragna player thinks it's only 60-40. If the Ragna player really feels they're having some trouble with Tager then it's more likely that the match-up is better for Tager than worse because Ragna is the better character in general. So, I might put it as 60-40 instead of 65-35 in Ragna's Favour.

The match-ups don't necessarily show how well people can play each character. Jin could very well be the worse character compared to Tsubaki, but maybe because Jin has a larger following and Tsubaki is a new character, the Jin players could probably have an easier time right now.

Then again, the difference is extremely slight. Jin, Tsubaki, and Arakune are almost completely even, so it could go either way.

#10 26 February 2010 - 06:48 PM

farranpoison
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Makes sense. Since I'm so happy seeing my old buddy Haku so high on the list.... WOULD YOU LIKE TO USE CS STONE? *YES* What? HAKUMEN is evolving! HAKUMEN evolved from LOW TIER to HIGH TIER! HAKUMEN learned STAB! HAKUMEN learned BARRIER! HAKUMEN is trying to learn AWESOME. However, he has four moves already. What move should be forgotten? Poof! HAKUMEN forgot SUCK. And... HAKUMEN learned AWESOME!
Severin, on asses:

true, you can fit a surprising amount there OKAY MOVING ON


#11 26 February 2010 - 07:06 PM

currentlemon
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Weird, on another teir list I read a couple weeks ago that Rachel had another even match-up with another character(forgot which one). I also heard her match-up against Hazama was 5.5-4.5 her favor, but then again, I never played CS so I don't know anything. __________________ Sticking with :RA: all the way in CS.

#12 26 February 2010 - 09:54 PM

smooshman
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it seems odd that Jin no longer has any real advantage matches (except Rachael but... yeah) but he has and = number of bad matches and evem matches and only 3 good... also bang (SHUT UP) and Litchi (GODAMN YOU) being the top 2 really, really, really pissed (acutally wangsty)
cuts self in corner
on a personal note... why the fuck did all my personal bad matches get harder? (GODAMN YOU LITCHI and bang to lesser extent, and tager to an even smaller extent and hakumen)

It's auto-flash, it happens when a Jin player plays Jin.

Says Jin stalker #1


#13 26 February 2010 - 10:27 PM

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I don't remember him having any real advantage except for Tager and Carl, I think. Could be wrong (I can't see the match ups because my computer is dumb and won't let me see images)...

If that isn't a creepy post I don't know what is.


It turned me on a little tbh


#14 26 February 2010 - 10:43 PM

ZONG_one
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Jin vs. Carl is in Carl's favor.

#15 26 February 2010 - 11:01 PM

kazukifafner
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^ Isn't that what the chart suggests?

#16 26 February 2010 - 11:10 PM

dehumanizer
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Personally as an arakune player, i think the ara litchi matchup is more one sided than 4.5-5.5 in litchi's favor, but what do i kno.

#17 26 February 2010 - 11:48 PM

kro_
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Would you mind posting a link to the original Arcadia matchup chart for reference? This list doesn't match what I've seen previously.
:MI: :RA: :ballLB:

#18 26 February 2010 - 11:50 PM

ZONG_one
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^ Isn't that what the chart suggests?


Yes, but the post above mine says that he thinks it's Jin's favor, and couldn't read the chart.
So I just helped him out.

#19 27 February 2010 - 01:51 AM

worldjem7
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Would you mind posting a link to the original Arcadia matchup chart for reference? This list doesn't match what I've seen previously.


Here: http://guiltygearbr....=30

It won't match though, for two reasons:

The match-ups in Arcadia don't match to start with (ex.: for Rachel it says she's even with Hakumen but for Hakumen it says it's 60-40 in his favour).

I interpreted the disagreements to find the most likely ratio, which is almost always slightly different than what Arcadia's chart says.

#20 27 February 2010 - 03:48 AM

kro_
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Here: http://guiltygearbr....=30

It won't match though, for two reasons:

The match-ups in Arcadia don't match to start with (ex.: for Rachel it says she's even with Hakumen but for Hakumen it says it's 60-40 in his favour).

I interpreted the disagreements to find the most likely ratio, which is almost always slightly different than what Arcadia's chart says.


Yeah, that was the version I saw last time.

The only problem is that in cases where matchups averaged out to .25 or .75, you rounded up in some cases and rounded down in others.

Ex: Both the Noel and Jin players believe their matchups are 6-4 against Rachel while the Rachel player believes the matchups are 4.5-5.5 against Noel and Jin. If you average out the differences, both matchups would end up being 4.25-5.75 from Rachel's perspective. However, your chart rounds down for the Jin matchup (4-6) while it rounds up for the Noel matchup (4.5-5.5).

I'm not really sure what determined whether you would round up or round down, but I think it would be worthwhile to keep that extra decimal space to have a more accurate picture of the matchup chart - especially since those minor differences affected the order of those B-tier characters.

Sorry if it seems like I'm being nitpicky about this.
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#21 27 February 2010 - 04:02 AM

Linear04
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lol, no wonder i was doing well in ct jin's high tier carried me :vbang:

#22 27 February 2010 - 04:19 AM

smooshman
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lol, no wonder i was doing well in ct

jin's high tier carried me :vbang:


same here... except I suck

It's auto-flash, it happens when a Jin player plays Jin.

Says Jin stalker #1


#23 27 February 2010 - 04:26 AM

worldjem7
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Yeah, that was the version I saw last time.

The only problem is that in cases where matchups averaged out to .25 or .75, you rounded up in some cases and rounded down in others.

Ex: Both the Noel and Jin players believe their matchups are 6-4 against Rachel while the Rachel player believes the matchups are 4.5-5.5 against Noel and Jin. If you average out the differences, both matchups would end up being 4.25-5.75 from Rachel's perspective. However, your chart rounds down for the Jin matchup (4-6) while it rounds up for the Noel matchup (4.5-5.5).

I'm not really sure what determined whether you would round up or round down, but I think it would be worthwhile to keep that extra decimal space to have a more accurate picture of the matchup chart - especially since those minor differences affected the order of those B-tier characters.

Sorry if it seems like I'm being nitpicky about this.


The chart you're talking about is called "[NORMALIZADA]" and subsequently, "
[NORMALIZADA EM ORDEM]".

I ignored these charts completely because it's a very lazy way to try and equalize the numbers to add up to 100%. It also makes the numbers unnaturally different from what the players are stating, which doesn't help me when I'm trying to interpret the players' reasoning behind their match-ups. So, I find it kind of defeats the purpose of using that extra decimal place because the entire format becomes different from what the players are stating. Not to mention charts don't need to have that much accuracy because frankly, it's almost moot to argue to that degree.

The reason I put Jin at 60-40 vs Rachel and Noel at 55-45 against Rachel is because Jin has been rated higher, suggesting he would have better tools to fight Rachel than Noel, which would lead me to conclude that Jin would have a better match-up vs Rachel than Noel.

#24 27 February 2010 - 04:38 AM

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i would put tager noel in tagers favor.

follow some dumb idiot on twitter https://twitter.com/imahfb


#25 27 February 2010 - 04:41 AM

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Totally copying and pasting. I'm loving life right now. Ragna is low S tier, Hakumen is right behind him, and all the fuckers who caused me trouble are now below them both. Except for Bang and Litchi, but I was expecting that. Something that amused me is that Hakumen has a 6-4 matchup with Hazama. Oh and the fact that Hazama and Rachel have a 5-5 match-up with each other. But jeez, no one has the advantage over Bang. His worse match-up is with Litchi and that's even split 5-5.
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#26 27 February 2010 - 04:42 AM

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how come the tager v tao match is slight disadvantage? i'm curious to know...in the old chart it was 6-4 in tao's favor.

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#27 27 February 2010 - 05:04 AM

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here's my current cs hakumen matchup chart. this is all subject to change as the game evolves. 7-3: rachel 6-4: noel, tager, arakune 5.5-4.5: jin, hazama, carl, taokaka 5-5: ragna, lambda, litchi, bang, tsubaki this is formed from playing the game since december against some of the best players in the country

#28 27 February 2010 - 05:21 AM

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wow arakune got hit hard but who cares when carl is still awesome and hakumen is now awesome

#29 27 February 2010 - 05:22 AM

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how come the tager v tao match is slight disadvantage?
i'm curious to know...in the old chart it was 6-4 in tao's favor.


It's probably because Tager gained more anti-air capabilities in CS. On the flip side Tao's damage output went higher while maintaining all of her mobility that made that match 6-4 in her favor in CT.

In general this chart doesn't give Tager anything though. I'm curious what's up with that. All even or bad except for Rachel? Tager VS Tsubaki if anything is 55-45 Tager or maybe even 60-40. Sure she can run away and charge at the start of the match, but once things get closer and she gets tagged with magnetism it becomes like any other match where she only can charge up in short bursts. And at that point, she loses a lot of options due to her DP being unsafe versus Tager and a few other issues. Any Tsubaki players weighing in that have had the match up experience would be appreciated.

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#30 27 February 2010 - 06:51 AM

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The chart you're talking about is called "[NORMALIZADA]" and subsequently, "
[NORMALIZADA EM ORDEM]".

I ignored these charts completely because it's a very lazy way to try and equalize the numbers to add up to 100%. It also makes the numbers unnaturally different from what the players are stating, which doesn't help me when I'm trying to interpret the players' reasoning behind their match-ups. So, I find it kind of defeats the purpose of using that extra decimal place because the entire format becomes different from what the players are stating. Not to mention charts don't need to have that much accuracy because frankly, it's almost moot to argue to that degree.

The reason I put Jin at 60-40 vs Rachel and Noel at 55-45 against Rachel is because Jin has been rated higher, suggesting he would have better tools to fight Rachel than Noel, which would lead me to conclude that Jin would have a better match-up vs Rachel than Noel.


For the record, I actually agree that Jin has a better matchup against Rachel than Noel, but you are still making an arbitrary decision to change the values of the original.

The matchup chart should be as objective as possible. Even if a normalized matchup chart is a lazy way to equalize the numbers, it does not add a subjective opinion to the original list. If the format of the normalized chart is bothersome, then I think posting the original (or at least a link on the first post) is better - even if the values don't add up 100%.
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