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[CSE] Jin vs Noel


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#1 02 January 2012 - 12:48 AM

Moy_X7
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The Neutral Game

Long Range: Your Tools vs Her Tools

Medium Range: Your Tools vs Her Tools

Close Quarters: Your Tools vs Her Tools

Offense

Your Offense:

Her Offense:

Defense

Your Defense:

Her Defense:

Gimmicks and Resets

Match Summary

Edited by Moy_X7, 02 January 2012 - 02:06 AM.

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#2 04 January 2012 - 11:32 PM

Shinsyn
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Attached File  Jin vs Noel Pic.jpg   94.63KB   901 downloads

The Neutral Game

Long Range: Your Tools vs Her Tools

Jin’s Tools: Ice Blades (A/B/C/D) (In the air or on the ground), Moonsong Distortion (632146.D - Primer Breaker) and Ice Fang Distortion (632146.C - Primer Breaker).

You can use all of these moves to make this match up easier for you since Jin has more options at this range than Noel. Try to zone Noel with Ice blades and confirm into a combo on CH or with an RC if you have the meter to spare. Noel can‘t do anything devastating to you at this range.

You WILL NOT zone Noel with Moonsong or Ice Fang, these are moves used to punish Noel on doing risky things at long range (EX: Punish Optic Barrel full screen by using Ice Fang).

Noel’s Tools: Optic Barrel and Fenrir Distortion (Start up Primer Breaker)

Noel is a Mid/Close range character and doesn’t have any long range options besides Optic Barrel. This is the main reason why Noel does not want to fight Jin at long range because he is at the advantage in this position. Jumping Fenrir is a bad ranged tool because it can be easily telegraphed when she is going to do it, so easy, you can bait it and punish her for throwing it out. Optic Barrel knocks down on hit and she'll RTSD when that happens, so be careful out there.

Medium Range: Your Tools vs Her Tools

Jin’s Tools: J.C, 5D, 2D (Primer Breaker) 623.A/B/D (Primer Breaker)

Use all of these tools because this is the time when Noel is doing whatever she can to get in on you so she can play her game.

J.C stuffs a lot of Noel’s approaches especially in the air. Just remember that it is not as good as it was in CS2 but it is still effective. You want to use this move at max range if possible since Noel beats you in the air if she’s close. You can confirm into combos at J.C’s range, just remember [CH] J.C > 2D doesn’t work unless you’ve hit the character with J.C as low as possible so do not rely on it.

5D is a decent tool to use to stop her approach and at max range can punish her drives, just remember that recovery for it is bad so choose when to use it wisely. It's worth noting that Noel can low profile under it with 3C and confirm into a nasty combo so use it with caution.

2D is your best tool at this range. It may be slower, but it hits higher and it takes a primer now. Since Noel will have a more cautious approach at this range unless you give her an opening she will be on the defensive end. This will allow you to get a few of her primers off her making her become a little more risky if she’s sitting on one primer, which works in your favor because you can punish her if she’s too risky.

623.A/B/D all break primers and are the best options for DP’s against Noel. It stuffs her aerial approach and makes her think twice about jumping in the air. Since they break primers, they are really good to use to add that pressure on Noel but as it goes for every DP, if you get baited, you will get hurt, especially dealing with Noel so be very wise about your DP usage. Also do not forget that she can still crouch under your A/B dp’s and can punish the follow up of your D dp with her 3C.

Noel’s Tools: 5D, 2D, 6A, 3C (Primer Breaker)

5D, 2D and 6A can stuff your approach on Noel.

It becomes an issue when you approach her from the air and she hit’s you with [CH] 6A, 66, 6C *Stuff* that leads into 3-4K depending on where you are on the screen.

5D can be used mid-range to punish things such as ice blades, 5C, and even 5D through it (depending on how good the Noel player’s timing is, she can drive through it or it will trade, which still puts you at the disadvantage). So be very careful when using this.

Noel’s 2D is still a scary move to deal with, it can go over ice blades and cross you up. Don't let her disrespect you during your pressure with this (more on that below).

Noel's 3C has good range on it as well and she can get a decent combo off of it on clean hit and even more if it's a [CH]. This move low profiles under a lot of Jin's shit (2A, 5B, 5C, 5D, DP D(2), etc). It's a risky move for her to use since it's punishable on block but this is also one of her scarier moves because it low profiles under way too many of Jin's normals. She'll most like only use this if she has the meter to RC. It takes a while for her 3C to get to the low profiling part so no good Noel is going to just throw this out, still it's a move with a high risk and a high reward.

You have to remember that even though you’re mid-range, Noel players can still do things to you that can turn it around in their favor. Be careful when playing here because you are keeping Noel outside of your bubble and she’s trying everything she can to burst it.

Close Quarters: Your Tools vs Her Tools

Jin’s Tools: 6A, 5B, 623C (Primer Breaker), and Yukikaze

These moves are all used to pressure and assist with mixing up Noel at this range but the downside to this is that you do not have the advantage here once she is on the offensive.

5B is great against Noel because it will beat some of her drives and keep her locked down. It keeps her on the defensive and allows you to think of something else if she blocks it. Now, if she IB’s the second hit, you can be punished with 2a so don’t overuse it. However, you can use that to your advantage and go for frame traps (more on that later).

6A is an OK tool since it is an overhead. I would be very careful using this because it’s risk/reward factor comes down to being 50/50. To raise that number in your favor, you do not want to perform this move w/o 50 heat since the chances of you landing a raw [CH] 6A to follow up on Noel is pretty slim. It’s a tool, not a great one but still useful.

623C is a good reversal when you’ve blocked Noel’s drives. Her drives are slower so it can be easy to view exactly when to use this DP when you have begun blocking her drive string. Once again, it’s a DP and DP’s can be punished so be very cautious when you use this.

Yukikaze is now a legit reversal now that it catches lows, though it’s window of active frames are not that long. You can still use this when you’re blocking Noel’s drive strings but do not rely on it because there is a good chance you can be grabbed out of it. Use this sparingly.

Noel’s Tools: 2D(Primer Breaker)/4D /6A/2A/5A/2C/3C (Primer Breaker)/6C (2nd hit Primer Breaker)/J.4D (Primer Breaker)

4D is used as a reversal, not the best one but it work and will cause you a lot of pain especially since 4D is a FATAL and following that up into a combo that leads into Spring Raid (which send the opponent vertical instead of flying away horizontally now) can still be followed up into a midscreen combo that can do up to 4K+

6A is a good AA tool that can keep Jin out or keep him from jumping out of a corner since it has upper body invulnerability and can lead to combos that does decent damage.

J.4D is a mix up move, it will be used against you so be prepared to block on the other side, also be wary that this move can also break primers so be aware of the amount of primers you have when she goes for this.

2A can beat our J.C like Ragna’s 2A can, and that can lead into the situation I stated before ([CH] 2A, 66, 6C *stuff* into 3K+ corner = you're in Noel pressure on wake-up)

5A is used to stagger pressure into her many frame traps along with 2C and 6C, all of these moves can be used to stagger you during pressure so Noel can fish for an opening to be able to do what Noel does best.

2D can still cross over and lead to damage but it is punishable especially when blocked. This is one of the few drives you will see that will allow you to punish her unless she follows up with a 4D, so make sure you attack when the time presents itself and make it count.

Offense

Jin's Offensive Strategy:

J.C, 5C, 2D and Ice Blades are your strongest tools in this match up. You want to keep Noel at bay with your midrange game and put her into the corner where you can dominate the match. There you can apply pressure on her wake up and you just need to watch out for a few drives which you can bait and punish (2D/4D for the most part, be wary of Fenrir reversal if Noel get’s desperate). Pressure Noel with 5B on her wake up if she does not have 50+ heat because Jin’s 5B will beat out most of Noel’s options on wake up if she doesn’t have the heat to escape. Look out for her Counter assault, if you are apply the pressure well against her she will use this and place her on the offensive end of the match. One think to look for is to see if Noel does any of her primer breaking moves as an ender to her combos; doing this puts her in a long recovery state giving you the opportunity to counter attack. The chances that Noel will do this w/o heat are slim but it does happen so look out for it and punish properly.

Make sure to use frame traps during pressure to stop her from even trying to mash 5A or Drives. Common frame traps include 2A > 5C, 2B > delayed 5C, 5B > 2C, and the riskier ones being 5B > 6C and 5C > 6C. She can mash 5A and stop your pressure during your 5B > 6A gatling so don't let her disrespect you like that more than once, you should know how to deal with it.

Noel's Offensive Strategy:

She wants to be as close to you as possible so at the start of the match she will be passive and wait on the moment to be aggressive. When Noel is on the offensive, she is in control of the pace of the fight. Once she get’s in, she will do whatever it takes; staggers into frame traps, DP baits, ect. This is where you have to learn where the gaps are in Noel’s pressure and if they are frame traps or not. Best option you have are to IB her string enders and punish off of that if you are not comfortable with the Noel Match up or cannot think of anything else if you find yourself in that position. Remember that 2D can cross you up if you're crouching + blocking when she's right next to you. j.4D is also used as a cross-up from time to time.

Defense

Jin's Defensive Strategy:

-A good Defense is a strong Offense-
You want to keep Noel out with Jin’s spacing game. It man not have been as strong as it was in CSII, but Jin still can apply his spacing game, especially against Noel. Zoning and Spacing Noel at Long/Mid range keeps you in control of the pace in this fight and forces the Noel player to take risks that you can capitalize on. If Noel get’s in, it’s all about having your defenses up and ready for Noel’s pressure tools. Hopefully you have heat to use a 623D or another viable reversal to get out, or counter assault to relieve yourself of Noel Pressure.

Noel's Defensive Strategy:

Noel will do 1 of 5 things:
5A, 2D, 4D, Counter Assault or Block; these are the options Noel has when she is defending. Noel’s 2D and 4D drives can be baited out or are visibly telegraphed moves since all her drives are slower then they were in CSII. Once you see them and have blocked them, you can punish with the proper move you see fit when you’ve revealed the gap in her combos.

If she does 5A and 2D during your close range pressure then you can stuff it next time with 2C/5C frame traps and with 5B > 5B pressure reset. If she's mashing 2D during your long range pressure (5C > 6B/2D) then you can frame trap her next time with 5C > 6C. 4D will shit on your jump-ins so be careful when approaching her.

Gimmicks and Resets and Tips

Noel doesn’t really have many gimmicks on the exception of Cross Up drives so be sure to look out for those, block and punish her for it. As stated before, her cross-up drives include 2D when you're crouching and right next to her and j.4D. Noel's main focus is to pressure you with staggers, frame trapping you, then hitting you with a painful combo off of a confirm. Noel is literally a walking frame trap so you have to be smart when she is pressuring you; I will list a few staggers/frame traps that can assist you to help out in the clutch:

5A > 2B
2B > 2C
2C > 5C
5C > 236A
2C > 236A
2C > 2A
2C > 5A [if up close]
5A > 5A
2B > 2A [unsafe frame trap since 2B is even on block can be poked out of.]

WATCH OUT FOR 2C and 5C
d.6C > d.5B [Possibly]
5A > 5A > 2B > 2C string [5A is -1, but 5A > 2B is like a 2 frame gap]
You can IB 2C, but if you IB the first attack, the second hit becomes a frame trap, IB the second hit of 2C so you may properly punish and be wary of 5C follow up.

Another important change they made to the drives besides the fact that they are slower is that most of their cancel windows got shrunk to almost nothing, so Noel can't do stuff like a delayed d.5A anymore if you try to catch her reloading or between drives.

Match Summary

This match up is pretty similar to what it was last game; I’d say it’s 5.5 - 4.5 in Jin’s favor. As Jin you want to keep the fight to your pace and reap good rewards on Noel’s bad decisions, but in that though, Noel is going to do the exact same thing to you. Keep Noel in mid-range and keep her there, and when you have her in the corner, make her think twice about doing anything.

You will be playing Footsies against Noel and she will be doing everything she can to rush you down so the match can run at a pace where she is in control. Do whatever you can so that this does not happen because once Noel is in, she is hard to get her out.

If the Noel player is smart, she will use 6A and 4D to stop your aerial approach but those are few options you have to look out for when making this approach. You don’t have to be in that deep to where 4D hits you to get something going, but you do have to get deep to apply pressure on Noel. 4D is pretty easy to see but once you’ve committed to the attack, and that move is coming out, prepare to receive 4K.

In the end, your safest approach to this match-up is to zone Noel until you have a good confirm (More often a CH) and work off of that. Then apply the pressure against Noel so that she is forced to block, but remember that once she goes on the offensive in close range combat, you are not at the disadvantage. Pick your points wisely and make every hit count against Noel.

When you get in and start to pressure, pay attention to Noel and see is she's mashing. If she's mashing then you frame trap, if she's not then continue to pressure.

Edited by Moy_X7, 09 January 2012 - 12:01 PM.

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#3 05 January 2012 - 01:39 AM

Moy_X7
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I've added a few things to your post and I have to ask a few questions here...

What's a stagger? I keep on hearing people talk about stagger pressure. Is it delaying your jab pressure to make it harder to CA or jump out or something?

How is 6A a reversal? Does it have full-body I-frames on this game or something? I know that it has upper body I-frames starting on frame 5 but that hardly makes it a reversal.
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#4 05 January 2012 - 01:47 AM

Shinsyn
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You've got the right idea Moi, Stagger Pressure is delaying your attacks then following up with another one, for example: Using an attack that's positive on block, and delaying your follow up attack (more than likely something that can chain into the last attack you used) to catch the opponent attacking/trying to escape/reversal attempt. You're just stagnating your attacks to mind game the opponent into thinking they can attack so you can obtain a CH.

I labeled 6A as a reversal? You're absolutely right, 6A is NOT a reversal, it's a good AA tool Noel uses since it has upper body invulnerability. I'll change that right now.

EDIT: Fixed my post about 6A, sorry about that.

Edited by Shinsyn, 05 January 2012 - 02:02 PM.

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#5 05 January 2012 - 01:56 AM

Moy_X7
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Ahh, so that's what it was. I had a feeling that what I had in mind is actually how staggering works. I just didn't know there was a term for that lol.
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#6 08 January 2012 - 09:12 PM

LunaKage
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4D does not take primers.

There's no way a Noel who has any brains is gonna throw out a 3C against Jin at neutral, especially considering the asshole is always in the air, 3C has 3689 frames of recovery and we're in crouching state AND CH state the whole duration of the move's startup and recovery. All it takes is one neutral jump over a 3C and suddenly we're getting combo'd. 3C is also a dumb idea as a reversal, since it only low profiles under moves if it's spaced VERY correctly, unless it's Hakumen's 4C, but why would he use that point blank anyways?

Also there is much more to worry about than just her drives while you're pressuring her, especially since a good Jin will beat out Noel's drives just doing what he's doing anyway, you're biggest worry when pressuring us is really gonna be our 5A, since it's 5 frames, and just beats a bunch of your shit pretty easy if you're just going in only worrying about our drives.

The only time you really need to worry about Drives is when you're jumping in (4D will murder you) or if you 6B, because a good Noel can just 2D (Maybe even 4D, I haven't tested it yet) that on reaction, and if the Noel is in the corner, it's gonna lead to about 3.8k(5.9k in the case of 4D) with YOU in the corner.

I'm gonna say it again, 3C sucks ass, and the only time I'd use it at neutral (barring trolling of course) would be against Tager, which is still risky but that is a topic for another board :x

#7 09 January 2012 - 11:30 AM

Moy_X7
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4D does not take primers.


Fixed Shin's post.

There's no way a Noel who has any brains is gonna throw out a 3C against Jin at neutral, especially considering the asshole is always in the air, 3C has 3689 frames of recovery and we're in crouching state AND CH state the whole duration of the move's startup and recovery. All it takes is one neutral jump over a 3C and suddenly we're getting combo'd. 3C is also a dumb idea as a reversal, since it only low profiles under moves if it's spaced VERY correctly, unless it's Hakumen's 4C, but why would he use that point blank anyways?


I did mention the risk that comes with 3C. You're right, no Noel is going to throw that out randomly during neutral and if they do, most likely only if they have the meter to RC it (just added the RC part). Still, it's an option, a high risk high reward one at that. If Noel gets a good read on Jin and low profiles under one of his ground normals then you know that shit hurts lol. Shin and I mentioned it because it really is a move that Jins need to be aware of, specially since knowing that not all Noels play by the book and some will do some random ass shit. I speak from personal experience when I say this, I've had random ass Noels just throw 3C at a perfect time when it just so happens that I want to poke her with 5C or start my pressure with 2A, that's almost 4K mid-screen just because that Noel decided to be random (in CSII at least lol). Like you said, I wouldn't recommend that as a reversal (where did you read this? I'll fix it if you let me know) since it takes a bit of time for the move to actually low profile under stuff and if it's not timed correctly then she gets hit during the start-up before the move gets to the low profiling part.

Also there is much more to worry about than just her drives while you're pressuring her, especially since a good Jin will beat out Noel's drives just doing what he's doing anyway, you're biggest worry when pressuring us is really gonna be our 5A, since it's 5 frames, and just beats a bunch of your shit pretty easy if you're just going in only worrying about our drives.


I wouldn't worry about 5A too much as a "reversal", 2C frame traps beat both your 2D and your 5A if the move prior to 2C doesn't get IB'd. 2A > 5C and 2B > delayed 5C are air tight frame traps, nothing in your arsenal (except for Fenrir lulz) can beat these even on IB. The only times that 5A mash might work in your favor is if the Jin decides to reset pressure after his 5B, with a dashing 2A, or if Jin is going for the 5B > 6A gatling but then that will only work ONCE for you, no Jin worth their salt is going to let you mash on him like that more than once. The only times when I'd worry about Noel mashing Drives is if I'm doing long range pressure like 5C > 6B/2D but at that range your 5A is out of the question.

Personally speaking, if my opponent mashes either 2A or 5A during my pressure then I feel like they're basically spitting on my face. I feel like that's the highest form of disrespect out there. Still, it is an option and I'll add it to Shin's post along with the various ways as how we can deal like that.

The only time you really need to worry about Drives is when you're jumping in (4D will murder you) or if you 6B, because a good Noel can just 2D (Maybe even 4D, I haven't tested it yet) that on reaction, and if the Noel is in the corner, it's gonna lead to about 3.8k(5.9k in the case of 4D) with YOU in the corner.


Jins also have to worry about Drives when going for the 5B > 6A and 5C > 2D gatlings, 6B and 2D to reset pressure, as well as when poking. There's an answer to most of these that work in Jin's favor but he's pretty much forced to bait and block the rest.

Your 4D is still some scary shit in this game, 2D is a joke though. The only reason why 2D was even remotely a threat in CSII was because of the stupid damage you can get off of it.

Thanks for the feedback though, I'll make sure to add some additional stuff to Shin's post.

Edited by Moy_X7, 09 January 2012 - 11:34 AM.

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#8 09 January 2012 - 02:27 PM

LunaKage
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2D is far from a joke good sir, if we have meter we can still get upwards to 4k midscreen lol

and getting 5A'd out of pressure doesn't mean the Noel is mashing, using a normal in a pressure situation is a calculated risk, and you mentioned all those frame traps, that happened to end in moves that we really aren't afraid of, what are you gonna do after a blocked 2C? a blocked 5C? If you 6B then you get hit with 5A if we're going for it, if you jump cancel, our 5A will whiff and we'll recover in time to block whatever you're doing in the air, if you 5D then we'll get hit, but 5D isn't scary since you need at least 25 meter and a corner to even get even a small combo off of it. If we're at the range for 2D to connect on us then we wont even bother pushing 5A anyways. Speaking of 2D, if we block that it's like you're telling us that it's out turn now, it may be + on block, but we're not locked down so a backdash will beat mostly anything you throw out, and if we think you're gonna 5C(like a lot of Jins do after a blocked 2D) we get to 5D it for free, for an easy 3k midscreen, and even more if we have the meter for it, or if it CHs and we hitconfirm right, it's around 4k. Also if we really wanted to push 5A at 2D range, then we would get hit by 2D, but if you wanted to 6B instead, you would get hit by 5A, though 2D is probably the better choice at that range anyway, due to breaking a primer.

Jin pressure is scary sure, but honestly unless I'm in the corner I'm not worried about it at all.

Also for gatlings that drive punishes, if those two frame traps you mentioned are actually frame traps(I personally didn't know because I always just block them), then we can probably 4D your frame traps ending in 2C, and I'm positive that a well timed 5D will beat your traps ending in 5C. 4D is frame one, and beats pretty much everything that isn't a low attack, or an attack that aims for the legs (like Jin's 2A), I'm pretty sure it will beat 2C clean. 5D does beat your 5C, but I'm not sure if it will work in those frame trap situations yet, 5D got a pretty decent invuln buff, so that's something I'd have to test.

Edited by Moy_X7, 09 January 2012 - 04:05 PM.


#9 09 January 2012 - 04:05 PM

Moy_X7
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Disregard that "this post was edited by Moi_X7" in your message. I derped and accidentally clicked on the edit button instead of the quote button lol.

2D is far from a joke good sir, if we have meter we can still get upwards to 4k midscreen lol


I'm just glad you need meter to get that kind of damage out of it now.

and getting 5A'd out of pressure doesn't mean the Noel is mashing, using a normal in a pressure situation is a calculated risk, and you mentioned all those frame traps, that happened to end in moves that we really aren't afraid of, what are you gonna do after a blocked 2C? a blocked 5C? If you 6B then you get hit with 5A if we're going for it, if you jump cancel, our 5A will whiff and we'll recover in time to block whatever you're doing in the air, if you 5D then we'll get hit, but 5D isn't scary since you need at least 25 meter and a corner to even get even a small combo off of it. If we're at the range for 2D to connect on us then we wont even bother pushing 5A anyways. Speaking of 2D, if we block that it's like you're telling us that it's out turn now, it may be + on block, but we're not locked down so a backdash will beat mostly anything you throw out, and if we think you're gonna 5C(like a lot of Jins do after a blocked 2D) we get to 5D it for free, for an easy 3k midscreen, and even more if we have the meter for it, or if it CHs and we hitconfirm right, it's around 4k. Also if we really wanted to push 5A at 2D range, then we would get hit by 2D, but if you wanted to 6B instead, you would get hit by 5A, though 2D is probably the better choice at that range anyway, due to breaking a primer.


There's not much that can be done after a 2C, we could try frame trapping again with 2C > 6C but that gets beat by IB 5A, 2C > 236A gets beat by 5A and Drives, 2C > 6B is pretty much outta the question since the gap between 2C and 6B is huge. If we're going that far and we know you're going to push buttons, then we can always take the risk of doing a ghetto frame trap with DP D if we have the meter or if your back is facing the wall to make it worth the risk. Jin has a lot of options after 5C, he can try to frame trap again with 5C > 6C (gets beat by IB 5A) or 5C > 2C (doesn't get beat by IB 5A), jump cancel to reset pressure and bait Drives, TK j.236C to bait 5A and 4D, or reset pressure with 6B if we've conditioned you into not pressing buttons. Of course there's an answer to those options just like there's an answer to your answers but at that point it depends on the Jin and the Noel and how far they've conditioned each other. As for our 2D to reset pressure, yeah I mentioned that above but at that point it's the same answers to your answers yadda yadda.


Jin pressure is scary sure, but honestly unless I'm in the corner I'm not worried about it at all.


Jin pressure isn't too scary since all he can do to you is get you to block unless he has meter.

Also for gatlings that drive punishes, if those two frame traps you mentioned are actually frame traps(I personally didn't know because I always just block them), then we can probably 4D your frame traps ending in 2C, and I'm positive that a well timed 5D will beat your traps ending in 5C. 4D is frame one, and beats pretty much everything that isn't a low attack, or an attack that aims for the legs (like Jin's 2A), I'm pretty sure it will beat 2C clean. 5D does beat your 5C, but I'm not sure if it will work in those frame trap situations yet, 5D got a pretty decent invuln buff, so that's something I'd have to test.


Could you test those frame traps in CSX? I set up the dummy to do these frame traps against Noel, and I, as Noel use 4D between the gaps and I always seem to get counter hit. That shit is weird since 4D has frame 1 invul so it might be one of those training mode glitches in CSII. Gotta make sure, so try it out for me when you get the chance, will ya?

It's not easy frame trapping characters with reversals (specially Hakumen and Noel) but just now that we have answers to your answers.

Speaking on that, could you tell me the holes in the Drive series? I know that we can grab you after 2D and there's not much you can do about it, you can 4D but it's too slow and it won't be able to punish the throw attempt, you can also use Spring Raid but that one is way unsafe on block. If you do 4D then I guess we can try to use 5C but that won't work if you use 2D afterwards. lol fucking Noel XD

Edited by Moy_X7, 09 January 2012 - 04:08 PM.

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#10 09 January 2012 - 04:15 PM

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As far as the drive series go, everything has a hole lol, the only really safe string is d.6C > d.5B.

And after 2D, if we think you're just hitting buttons then we can Assault Through almost everything you do(if you do it ASAP) the only time Assault Through will lose to stuff is if you do it late so your attack auto-corrects. As such, be prepared to have Assault Through spammed on you all the time, and due to the fact that it get a nice 3k midscreen combo on CH, but only get's punished for a mere 5A combo at best, it's like: what do we have to lose?

Also if you try to 5C our 4D... lol, why would you do that?

Oh and you mentioned j.236C baiting 4D? that can work in the corner, but MOST of the time I just have it clash, and then I get set free from Jin pressure. Hell I even save myself from j.236D a lot of the time with 4D, though it's success rate is solely dependent on how it's spaced, normally I wont do 4D in a situation where the j.236D will hit me 100% of the time anyway.

The only Jin exp I have in CSX so far is against Shinsyn and Shadow_Flash(Koun), but Shinsyn I only got to fight day one before I knew how to abuse my new drives, which is actually the reason I know 5A is so good, it's the main thing I was using to quell his approach, and Koun... well he hates Noel :P
I'll test as much as I can next time I play the game, but I don't get to hit training mode since MI only has one or two copies floating around at any given time, and you know EVERYBODY is on that shit.

#11 09 January 2012 - 05:13 PM

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I meant to use 5C after blocking 4D, of course we don't wanna do anything during 4D, maybe a jab but that's about it lol.

I hear that about the training mode, I'll see if I can get one of the fellow Jins to try it out.
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#12 09 January 2012 - 05:55 PM

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4D is going to beat all of our non-low frame traps, unless you TK j236C close-up (e.g. 5B(2) > TK j236C) OR you out-space it, I guess. Blocked 2C is pretty bad; 2C > (Delay) 3C, 2C > 6C, and 2C > Reversal are your options.

5D doesn't seem to work as a reversal. It got beaten by pretty much everything.

Unrelated to this, off of 3C > 214A ender, SJ Forward Delay j2C > 2B > AB (kara) will beat all of Noel's reversal options (the kara is there if she uses Fenrir).

Edited by TCSyd, 09 January 2012 - 05:59 PM.

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#13 09 January 2012 - 06:07 PM

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4D is going to beat all of our non-low frame traps, unless you TK j236C close-up (e.g. 5B(2) > TK j236C) OR you out-space it, I guess. Blocked 2C is pretty bad; 2C > (Delay) 3C, 2C > 6C, and 2C > Reversal are your options.


Could you try doing 5B > 2C or 5B > 6C? I tried in CSII as Noel but I get counter hit before the 4D comes out. Must be a glitch but I wanna confirm.

Edited by Moy_X7, 09 January 2012 - 06:37 PM.

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#14 09 January 2012 - 06:12 PM

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4D is going to beat all of our non-low frame traps, unless you TK j236C close-up (e.g. 5B(2) > TK j236C) OR you out-space it, I guess. Blocked 2C is pretty bad; 2C > (Delay) 3C, 2C > 6C, and 2C > Reversal are your options.

5D doesn't seem to work as a reversal. It got beaten by pretty much everything.

Unrelated to this, off of 3C > 214A ender, SJ Forward Delay j2C > 2B > AB (kara) will beat all of Noel's reversal options (the kara is there if she uses Fenrir).


We can 2D over 2B, at most we may need to IB the j.2C, and since we're in the corner for this setup, that's an easy 3.8k, plus corner for Noel.

#15 09 January 2012 - 06:41 PM

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You'll need to IB it. If the Jin goes deeper with j2C, it's air-tight, but I think he may lose to Fenrir then (Fenrir blocks j2C instead of it whiffing). It's a moot point because it's easy enough for Jin to react to blocked j2C and then 5A/2A/5B. EDIT: Or he could OS it.

Edited by TCSyd, 09 January 2012 - 06:44 PM.

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#16 09 January 2012 - 06:46 PM

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What happens if someone tech rolls your j.2C attempt? is it meaty enough to catch the roll?

#17 09 January 2012 - 06:49 PM

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It will catch forward roll, but the corner-to-corner combo off of it is pretty difficult (I don't think side-swap is possible off of it EDIT: Well, you could probably do something really silly with 623C and Rapid).

Edited by TCSyd, 09 January 2012 - 06:52 PM.

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#18 30 March 2012 - 05:51 AM

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all frame traps that has non-low-like attacks will cleanly lose to noel's 4D
I am having trouble against 4D and 2D. 4D beats some moves that can't be beaten by 2D and vice versa
A well timed grab or a low attack will beat both but I can't find a situation where I can use this low attack or grab to beat them

Edited by Skeith91, 30 March 2012 - 05:59 AM.


#19 30 March 2012 - 09:51 AM

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all frame traps that has non-low-like attacks will cleanly lose to noel's 4D
I am having trouble against 4D and 2D. 4D beats some moves that can't be beaten by 2D and vice versa
A well timed grab or a low attack will beat both but I can't find a situation where I can use this low attack or grab to beat them


Well honestly, Jin should be playing this matchup like Noel is a tiny, speedy, Tager.

Jin can pressure Noel, but remember that it's always a risk, if Noel decides to D, and you did the wrong move at the wrong time, then you get hit. Since Jin has decent spacing tools, good air normals, his 2D, and his EX Ice Blades, he can make Noel's life hard with those moves alone.

If you notice the Noel player likes to 4D you when she's in the corner, do a TK EX Ice Blades, which when done correctly, will freeze her, giving you a free corner combo. In the event that she did 2D instead, well EX Ice Blades will hit that with an even better success rate, which means again, free corner combo for you.

But other than that, you wanna play the neutral game, keep away as much as possible, abuse his j.C at max range(Where 4D can't hit you out of it), and you should find yourself getting a lot more success in the matchup.

#20 30 March 2012 - 02:47 PM

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Thanks for the tips
Also I found out that 6D beats both 4D and 2D in the corner

I think I really should be playing against her like a tiny speedy Tager lol

#21 30 March 2012 - 05:43 PM

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Well honestly, Jin should be playing this matchup like Noel is a tiny, speedy, Tager.


That's exactly how I treat this matchup... it's fucking annoying though. I find abusing max range j.C works well for a LOT of matchups though. Ragna included. On an interesting note, if someone tries to 4D your j.2C but reacts too late, you can go directly into sekkajin and beat out 4D. XD It's a scrubby tactic, but it works.

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#22 30 March 2012 - 09:30 PM

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NEVER 6D ON WAKEUP UNLESS YOURE AT ROLL CATCH DISTANCE

#23 24 April 2012 - 02:17 AM

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Well honestly, Jin should be playing this matchup like Noel is a tiny, speedy, Tager.


No kidding, the guessing game with 4D and 2D rivals that of Tager's Buster and AC. That and her 3C goes under a LOT of Jin's crap, gotta be careful of that when she has meter.
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#24 24 April 2012 - 02:38 AM

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3C is really bad though, I envy those people who get away with using 3C as a reversal lol.

It's useful as a frame trap tool though, so definitely look out for the 2C > 3C on block, it will beat any non-invuln attacks as well as jump outs, if the Noel has meter she gets it ALMOST for free, however, it's really easy to DP it, but again, that's a mind game in itself.

ALL OF THESE COMMAS IN THAT SENTENCE

#25 24 April 2012 - 02:51 AM

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3C is really bad though, I envy those people who get away with using 3C as a reversal lol.

It's useful as a frame trap tool though, so definitely look out for the 2C > 3C on block, it will beat any non-invuln attacks as well as jump outs, if the Noel has meter she gets it ALMOST for free, however, it's really easy to DP it, but again, that's a mind game in itself.

ALL OF THESE COMMAS IN THAT SENTENCE


I usually only get hit by that shit at the beginning of the match.

> "I think I'll use 5C as an opener"
> *gets hit by 3C as it low-profiles under my 5C*
> FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU

It's not really used that much because of how vulnerable you are on whiff and block. It's kinda like doing random Ice/Heart Car, with the added perk of low-profiling under half of Jin's arsenal and doing a shit-ton of damage if it lands lol
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#26 24 April 2012 - 02:54 AM

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oh yeah at the opening of the match it can be semi-legit. Only other time I use it at neutral is when I am max range away from Tager, because he can't punish it without Spark Bolt on Block.

But yeah at that range, it will usually go under most moves for any character, I'm just surprised you do 5C at round start, I usually expect Jin players to jump away, then it's like "FFFFFFFFFF THE CHASE IS ONN!!!!!!"

#27 24 April 2012 - 05:42 AM

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I usually do either 66 5B or 5C at the start of a match depending on what character I'm facing. That time I just said "fuck it" and paid the consequences. Noel has a couple of moves that can go through my 5C (2D, 5D, and 3C), that's what I get lol.
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#28 24 April 2012 - 08:58 AM

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against this bitch i just tk c ice sword or super jump block now :/

#29 30 April 2012 - 10:06 AM

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Use your 2D pressure from farther than you normally would if you're going to punish her drives. Her 3C, dash 2A (which is universal), and just about all her drives allow her to dodge the attack, get in close, and punish you for 3.5K. Your 5D is a better option, even though it leaves you at negative frames and easy hit confirm. But use it at your typical 2D range (try and aim for the tip or the wolf's eye) because she can still 2a punish your dash cancel (7 start up vs -14 adv.) If you get the distance right, her 2A punishes will wiff and any drive retaliations like 5D are easily spotted, giving you enough time to continue pressure or DP.

#30 30 April 2012 - 10:08 AM

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Jin's 2D beats all of Noel's drives.




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