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[CSE] Valkenhayn vs Mu - 12


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#1 19 January 2012 - 06:12 PM

Kiba
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Discuss the Mu MU here.


Punishes:

Anti-airing:

Zoning:

Their game plan:

Strategy:

Char specific details:


  • Her range is far superior to ours. Playing footsies with her is a bad idea.

Edited by Kiba, 22 February 2012 - 11:49 PM.

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#2 20 February 2012 - 12:03 AM

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Whooooa sorry I posted the wrong info here earlier. Sorry, don't mind me

Edited by Surf, 20 February 2012 - 12:12 AM.

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#3 30 March 2012 - 11:39 PM

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I played this a fair bit in CS2. But info still applies. Although I don't play Valk I hope this helps.



236A Blows up a lot of approach options and depending on when and where they use it, it can lead to a mixup.

5C / 2C / j.C / 2B = Her best pokes IMO. Her range is absurd so getting into Footsies is an aforementioned very bad idea

Punish whiffed or badly spaced 6C's hard with 5C CH > Rozen > Blah whatever you do.

Mu gets absurd damage from CH's (More than Valk in some circumstances) So just don't press buttons. Seriously. SERIOUSLY.

Her 6A is a strong tool for stopping C Dashes. Although you'd need to be very predictable.

Air DP will pretty much always win AtA
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I start UMVC3, there are very hard combo. I hear footdive everyday


#4 14 October 2013 - 03:55 AM

Magaki
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Greetings.

Does anyone here have more tips against Mu ? The only Mu I fight against is a pretty good one (850+ PSR) and the match is . . . Really one-sided.

I have huge troubles getting in and I try to vary my approach as much as possible.

I use Jump>w66D, Jump>wj236A>command dash, command dash shenanigans or simply running towards her in wolf mode and go with w5A but as you can easily guess, I'm not successful.
Most of the time, I get owned by either the DP, 6A, 5C, jC and j2C in neutral. I tried to bait that with either w4C and w7C but I get gangbanged by the lasers before I can even punish her.

When I do manage to get in though, I most of the time get mashed out of my pressure and I can assure you that I'm not the kind to go with easy stuff like 5C>6C.
I usually prefer to use 6B and 236B wolf cancels. For some reason, I never managed to get her with Jump cancel>jC>RC>jC or jC>Mondlicht>wolf cancel.
6B still seems to be the most reliable option both in pressure and as a meaty.

Still, offense isn't really that much of a big deal compared to neutral. Getting in is extremely hard with all those lasers flying around and going into wolf mode is a huge risk. However if I decide to simply keep my cool and stay in human mode to grasp a good opportunity, I get badly zoned and barely can move out of blockstun at all. Most reliable option to slowly approach is to wait for the right timing to do 236A. Wolf canceling is a no-no unless I want to get gangbanged by those damn lasers again and eat a combo or get pressured.

Anyway, like you could understand, I really have HUGE troubles in neutral and can't manage to find any reliable option.

A few notes that might spark some ideas:
I mostly use my meter for Counter Assault which seems to be pretty good against Mu's pressure and allow me to be the one to start going on the offense by going into wolf mode right away.
Most of the time when I use wj66d, the Mu player answers with a jump j2C who is quite good to beat a lot of high air attempt it seems. I tried to bait D7C that too but you know . . . Lasers.
Another thing I watch out: if I want to do any air attempt, I wait for the steins close to her to shoot first THEN try to get in after that. Those seem to be the ones that are the most threatening lasers because of their angles.

#5 14 October 2013 - 04:55 PM

Kiba
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Hey there. I'll see what I can do.

The way you move around pretty much sounds like the approach that I use. If you're consistently getting hit by j.2C and j.C, using w66D > j.D > 7C is nice to try and bait things, but perhaps you could opt to just jump in a block for example, use w66D and barrier block, rather than going for the offensive. I'm not saying you do this all the time though. Just to add a little more variety to your game.

Also if Mu is on the ground it might be better off trying to approach her from the ground. You have w5B if the players tries to attack you, otherwise they would have to barrier block and eat your mixup.

If Mu has used the lasers I'd do one of two things. If I'm close to her then I'll try to use a (command) grab so I can make the lasers pass through me. You could also try to hit her with a DD (this is a little more specific unless you do it as she's inputting the command), but try not to hit her with anything else. I'm pretty much a hypocrite when I say this because I'm really stubborn, but if you hit her with anything else, 9 times out of 10 the laser is gonna come back and belt you in the face, and on CH it has quite a bit of hitstun so you're almost giving Mu a full combo. It's worse if you get hit by the laser in the air because she gets a better combo.
The 2nd option would be to worry less about Mu and focus more on the lasers. Use movements which have a lot of cover (w66D for example) in order to avoid the lasers. If you stay in one position you make it easy for Mu to get to you and again if you get hit by the laser then you're giving Mu a combo. If there's a lot of steins it may be difficult for you to determine the direction it'll move in so it may be better for you to block unfortunately, but jumping around in wolf usually helps out alot.

What sort of pressure strings are you using? I think things like 2A > 5D > Command grab, jump cancellable normal > j.D > 3C > j.A/5A/Command grab. 236B wolf cancels and j.C > 214B > wolf cancel are mash fodder, especially j.C > 214B > wolf cancel, the gap is too big. If you want more information on the type of pressure that you can use look at the Valkenhayn Strategy Guide. Also how are you using j.C > RC > j.C? Are you using it on someone's wakeup? Are you knocking someone down, not moving waiting for them to tech, and then trying to do j.C > RC > j.C? A real good place to use it is 2A > j.C > RC > j.C.

If Mu does get you blocking, I think you just need to get used to her pressure a little more, because honestly Mu doesn't have anything to make you really scared. It actually came to a point where if I block I just instant block and barrier if I need to so I can get out easily. The only time where Mu is a little more scary is when she knocks you down in the corner with steins and then explodes them on your wakeup. You lose primers and you have to take the next mixup (for some reason I find blocking 6B after that difficult).

Still, offense isn't really that much of a big deal compared to neutral. Getting in is extremely hard with all those lasers flying around and going into wolf mode is a huge risk. However if I decide to simply keep my cool and stay in human mode to grasp a good opportunity, I get badly zoned and barely can move out of blockstun at all. Most reliable option to slowly approach is to wait for the right timing to do 236A. Wolf canceling is a no-no unless I want to get gangbanged by those damn lasers again and eat a combo or get pressured. In neutral what I do usually do depends on what the opponent is doing. If they're doing nothing, I usually find something like j.D > 5C > j.D > j.B successful. Sometimes I try to catch her with 5C but that's usually not a good idea because her 5C is real good in neutral and may trade or even beat your 5C.

Most of the time when I use wj66d, the Mu player answers with a jump j2C who is quite good to beat a lot of high air attempt it seems. I tried to bait D7C that too but you know . . . Lasers.


I figured this would be the case. You're gonna have to try just getting in and blocking with wj66D or resort to a different manuvere. It sounds like the player is more or less reacting to how you're getting in. I play Mu a helluva lot of the time so perhaps my matches can shed a little more light?

https://www.youtube....h?v=8q1OiNzWRns - For more matches please visit the CSE Valk video thread.

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#6 14 October 2013 - 07:09 PM

Magaki
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Thank you very much for the quick reply.

The way you move around pretty much sounds like the approach that I use. If you're consistently getting hit by j.2C and j.C, using w66D > j.D > 7C is nice to try and bait things, but perhaps you could opt to just jump in a block for example, use w66D and barrier block, rather than going for the offensive. I'm not saying you do this all the time though. Just to add a little more variety to your game.


Never thought about using this method actually. I always try my best to not end up into any situation that will put me in the defensive. Especially when I'm not that great when it comes to that part (Have some troubles reacting to some overheads like Mu's. Like, when I see it, I press 4 too late.).
Still, I will definetely try it out at least once to see if it does bring some result.

Also if Mu is on the ground it might be better off trying to approach her from the ground. You have w5B if the players tries to attack you, otherwise they would have to barrier block and eat your mixup.


That's what I do to surprise my opponent. I go with w5A if the opponent is on the ground and w5B when he's in the air. Mu's 5C is however the main answer I stumble upon. And considering the lasers around, baiting isn't an option. I was considering lately simply running in wolf mode then jump>jD>Barrier block. If the opponent used 5C, it will whiff allowing me to punish with a falling jC. Do you think it might be worth trying or it's too risky ?

If Mu has used the lasers I'd do one of two things. If I'm close to her then I'll try to use a (command) grab so I can make the lasers pass through me. You could also try to hit her with a DD (this is a little more specific unless you do it as she's inputting the command), but try not to hit her with anything else. I'm pretty much a hypocrite when I say this because I'm really stubborn, but if you hit her with anything else, 9 times out of 10 the laser is gonna come back and belt you in the face, and on CH it has quite a bit of hitstun so you're almost giving Mu a full combo. It's worse if you get hit by the laser in the air because she gets a better combo.
The 2nd option would be to worry less about Mu and focus more on the lasers. Use movements which have a lot of cover (w66D for example) in order to avoid the lasers. If you stay in one position you make it easy for Mu to get to you and again if you get hit by the laser then you're giving Mu a combo. If there's a lot of steins it may be difficult for you to determine the direction it'll move in so it may be better for you to block unfortunately, but jumping around in wolf usually helps out alot.


The command grab helped me countless times indeed and I tend to use it by rushing when I know the opponent will block, when the opponent is waking up or after pressuring and doing w5C>wjA>w236D . I know the last part is ultra obvious but so far I never stumbled upon someone who could read that and punish accordingly considering it's not what I use the most.
As for Mu's lasers, when I know shit is gonna pour soon, I simply attack and try to make the Mu player block at least considering that the lasers won't show up if she's in hitstun/blockstun. Of course, there is still Ame no Totsuka but I simply jump>Air barrier block when I see it coming. Always worked so far.

What sort of pressure strings are you using? I think things like 2A > 5D > Command grab, jump cancellable normal > j.D > 3C > j.A/5A/Command grab. 236B wolf cancels and j.C > 214B > wolf cancel are mash fodder, especially j.C > 214B > wolf cancel, the gap is too big. If you want more information on the type of pressure that you can use look at the Valkenhayn Strategy Guide. Also how are you using j.C > RC > j.C? Are you using it on someone's wakeup? Are you knocking someone down, not moving waiting for them to tech, and then trying to do j.C > RC > j.C? A real good place to use it is 2A > j.C > RC > j.C.


Out of the pressure strings you mentionned, the ones I use are 236B wolf cancel and j214B wolf cancel. However, I would like to point out that I actually use them against mashers or people who consider that mashing is more than enough against Valk's pressure. I usually do afterwards 7DD>jB or jC or 4D>wj236A. Seems quite good so far against DPs and 5A mash but the risk is that the opponent got a way to jump out of pressure. Sadly, that Mu player seems to know the matchup and that blockstring quite well and that's what happens. I used 7DD>Throw once and it worked but afterwards, he mixed in some air DP after that or simply tech the throw.
I also did read the strategy guide countless times which, to be honest, helped me tremendously. Thanks for putting so much work on it because it helped me much more than any videos on youtube or nicovideo. Still, I think I'll simply read it again and make sure this time to correctly memorize all the blockstrings this time rather than only selecting a few of them.

If Mu does get you blocking, I think you just need to get used to her pressure a little more, because honestly Mu doesn't have anything to make you really scared. It actually came to a point where if I block I just instant block and barrier if I need to so I can get out easily. The only time where Mu is a little more scary is when she knocks you down in the corner with steins and then explodes them on your wakeup. You lose primers and you have to take the next mixup (for some reason I find blocking 6B after that difficult).


Yeah. Aside from that 6B, I have no troubles at all in defense. The main reason why I lose is simply because 90% of the time I try to get in, I end up eating a combo because of the lasers. Her offense IMO is simply average.

In neutral what I do usually do depends on what the opponent is doing. If they're doing nothing, I usually find something like j.D > 5C > j.D > j.B successful. Sometimes I try to catch her with 5C but that's usually not a good idea because her 5C is real good in neutral and may trade or even beat your 5C.


I do share the same opinion for neutral but waiting for the right opportunity result in the Mu player having more time to set lasers. Seems that he prefers to stay in the air and get steins from there. Running forward with w5B wasn't really successful. I never thought however of downright dashing through the forest of lasers right away. Might actually work if I do it after I see the first stein being set. If it doesn't work, well . . . Valkenhayn will probably be as helpless as the heroine of a hentai tentacle.
As for 5C, I like to use it in some matchups but I just don't like the idea of using it at all here.

I figured this would be the case. You're gonna have to try just getting in and blocking with wj66D or resort to a different manuvere. It sounds like the player is more or less reacting to how you're getting in. I play Mu a helluva lot of the time so perhaps my matches can shed a little more light?

https://www.youtube....h?v=8q1OiNzWRns - For more matches please visit the CSE Valk video thread.


I actually did watch a lot of Valk vs Mu matches. To be more accurate, I watched Hima's, Uma no Hone's, Nao's, Shuu's and also yours. About the match with Ixisnaugus, I did use some of the stuff you did and they almost all got beaten by 5A, 6A or the DP. I think I'll simply put more work into better ways to bait this kind of situation.
Another thing I would like to point out however is the fact that I never saw the Mu player I usually fight against do mistakes like poorly spaced 5Cs, mashing when he shouldn't and other things like that. Perhaps Ixisnaugus did them because of the lag ? Still looks like a pretty good player though.

Anyway, I will practice what you said and will try it next time I have the opportunity to. I'll give a proper feedback at this point in order to report what worked and what wasn't successful.

#7 14 October 2013 - 07:50 PM

Kiba
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That's what I do to surprise my opponent. I go with w5A if the opponent is on the ground and w5B when he's in the air. Mu's 5C is however the main answer I stumble upon. And considering the lasers around, baiting isn't an option. I was considering lately simply running in wolf mode then jump>jD>Barrier block. If the opponent used 5C, it will whiff allowing me to punish with a falling jC. Do you think it might be worth trying or it's too risky ?


It's worth trying that sounds all good to me and it's something I feel I need to do more. You could also do w5CC (the wolf brake) > 66D which may help you too.


Out of the pressure strings you mentionned, the ones I use are 236B wolf cancel and j214B wolf cancel. However, I would like to point out that I actually use them against mashers or people who consider that mashing is more than enough against Valk's pressure. I usually do afterwards 7DD>jB or jC or 4D>wj236A. Seems quite good so far against DPs and 5A mash but the risk is that the opponent got a way to jump out of pressure. Sadly, that Mu player seems to know the matchup and that blockstring quite well and that's what happens. I used 7DD>Throw once and it worked but afterwards, he mixed in some air DP after that or simply tech the throw.
I also did read the strategy guide countless times which, to be honest, helped me tremendously. Thanks for putting so much work on it because it helped me much more than any videos on youtube or nicovideo. Still, I think I'll simply read it again and make sure this time to correctly memorize all the blockstrings this time rather than only selecting a few of them.


The player seems to adapt really quickly. If you could do the same it'll really help. It's also a yomi based thing y'know? You tried 7DD > Throw, and he reacted by either a DP or teched the throw. You still have options against this however. How fast does he tech the throw? Is it immediate? If so, try doing 7DD > j.A > Purple throw, which could get you a throw reject miss. 7DD > Barrier would work against his DP but again you never know what he's gonna do because it's such a momentum based thing. He could DP and you could punish him, or he could throw you because he believed you were gonna grab him, and you may not be able to tech it because you're holding the barrier button. If you don't want to fall into this 'guessing game' situation you may have to drop that method or alter it slightly. For example perhaps something like 7DC > j.D > air dash?

Regarding the strategy guide, thanks alot dude. It means alot because I tend to think I'm off track. Anyway it's thanks to my fellow contributors too.


The main reason why I lose is simply because 90% of the time I try to get in, I end up eating a combo because of the lasers.


Sounds like me haha!


I do share the same opinion for neutral but waiting for the right opportunity result in the Mu player having more time to set lasers. Seems that he prefers to stay in the air and get steins from there. Running forward with w5B wasn't really successful. I never thought however of downright dashing through the forest of lasers right away. Might actually work if I do it after I see the first stein being set. If it doesn't work, well . . . Valkenhayn will probably be as helpless as the heroine of a hentai tentacle.
As for 5C, I like to use it in some matchups but I just don't like the idea of using it at all here.


If you try to approach a grounded Mu by running on the ground you face the risk of eating 5C to the face, or even a 6C (Extremely risky). In this case, maybe try running, and when you think they're gonna use 5C, use 4C and punish with wj.A. I've found that extremely useful in my matches.


I actually did watch a lot of Valk vs Mu matches. To be more accurate, I watched Hima's, Uma no Hone's, Nao's, Shuu's and also yours. About the match with Ixisnaugus, I did use some of the stuff you did and they almost all got beaten by 5A, 6A or the DP. I think I'll simply put more work into better ways to bait this kind of situation.
Another thing I would like to point out however is the fact that I never saw the Mu player I usually fight against do mistakes like poorly spaced 5Cs, mashing when he shouldn't and other things like that. Perhaps Ixisnaugus did them because of the lag ? Still looks like a pretty good player though.

Anyway, I will practice what you said and will try it next time I have the opportunity to. I'll give a proper feedback at this point in order to report what worked and what wasn't successful.


Actually Ixis and I were playing offline heh. He's a pretty good player, but it sounds like you have someone extremely good to play against. With the Mu matchup, you have to be more creative with your approach. You definitely sound like you're on the right track with things! Good luck.

Also this isn't aimed at you but for everyone really. I know the matchups threads are horrible and lacking in information since I created them and I offer my apologies but I won't make the same mistake come CP.

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#8 14 October 2013 - 10:11 PM

bakahyl
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That socalled decent Mu would be me that you have played (imo i think i am just above average)

I agree to use the wolf fake out more(dunno what it's called )or approach me less horizontally. Because from what i see, you tend to fly into my 5a (it suprisingly works lots of times as an AA against predictable "wolf charges" and on CH i get a 3k+ damage combo ) or 6a on the ground or j.a, j.c or even j.2c when i am in the air.

Mu's j.2c at inproper height should lose against wolf 5b, however her hurtbox is rather small and she stays suspended in the air for quite a moment http://www.dustloop....ox/mu/j.2C.html

Don't be afraid to get under or above Mu, because Mu is much weaker vertically than she is horizontally. That is why i am trying to stay as much as the same height as you are
When attacking in the air Mu's 6a doesn't hit much above her and 2c has a head invul fairly late.
You should have no real problems attacking her from the ground while she is in the air, because wolf 5b should stuff anything except projectiles (which are unreliable as a way to attack someone below someone except Yata no Kagami) or her air dp

Of course my main startegy is still trying to keep you away

Edited by bakahyl, 14 October 2013 - 10:26 PM.


#9 14 October 2013 - 11:20 PM

Magaki
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Thank you very much for the tips. I'll definetely keep it in mind next time we play.
There is something I would like to know though. Could you please talk more about you think of Valkenhayn as a Mu player ?
Like which moves you watch out for or what you consider to be the mistakes a Valk player can do against Mu ?

#10 15 October 2013 - 12:27 AM

bakahyl
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Thank you very much for the tips. I'll definetely keep it in mind next time we play.
There is something I would like to know though. Could you please talk more about you think of Valkenhayn as a Mu player ?
Like which moves you watch out for or what you consider to be the mistakes a Valk player can do against Mu ?


Valk is for me probably tied with Taokaka (and probably high level players Hazama) for Mu's more annoying and one of her bad matchups, because these characters have the tools to easily get in on Mu very quickly and they can very easily disrupt her zoning and even punish her for zoning badly.

The bigger mistakes that i have noticed playing against Valkenhayn's are exactly the ones that you have mentioned: sometimes too reckless and predictable approaches that can be stuffed (like 5a, 6a) or they were trying to do stuff while getting countered by projectiles (worst offender would be getting a CH from a totsuka laser, because it leads to very damaging combo's. However If you cannot avoid (jump cancel) an approaching totsuka laser because you were comboing Mu, then either try to throw her(if you were hitting me with 5a, 2a) or knock her down or away (like with 3c). That way Mu won't be able to take advantage of the CH)
Because of all the lasers and habaya, i have seen some players get frustrated and started to take more risks and make even more mistakes to approach me

Approaches that did sometime work against me was approaching me with "safe jump" while blocking while "thrusted" with the momentum of the wolf form. I have seen some Valkenhayn's try to approach me with that but with j.c however if I were setting steins i could jump cancel or special cancel (dp) and avoid it in some way.

Edited by bakahyl, 15 October 2013 - 12:33 AM.





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