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BBCS Extend Tier List Thread


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#1 23 January 2012 - 08:12 AM

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0. Rules

For the love of god, read the rules of the thread before posting. Any post made in this thread that does not follow the clearly outlined rules will result in an infraction. Your post will probably be edited or deleted.

The Rules Are Intentionally Harsh To Prevent This Thread From Becoming Shit

Rule #1: If you are not a discussion moderator, any and all posts must be outlined in the following format or extremely close, based on context:

I believe that <your opinion on a subject matter of your choice> is <true/false/contestable> based on <empircal data, logical reasoning, tru fax>.

OR

I <agree with/contest> the notion brought up by @<poster name> with regard to <subject matter> on the grounds that <empiral data, logical reasoning, tru fax>.

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Question: <Your question>. <the reason you want to know>.

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Attempted Answer: <@Person's Name>: <intended answer to question> <based on information you know>.

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<@Person's Name> has made a good point regarding <subject>. I <yield on this point of discussion for now/do not agree, but will continue to find more evidence to support my claim>.

Quotes are allowed in any part of the post.


Lastly, if you need to have random shit you must to say before or after you make your correctly formatted post, say it in italics.

Rule #2: Do not post if you do not have something that falls into one of the two formats above.

Rule #3: Do not post unless you intend for your post to incite discussion of some sort

Rule #4: Do not use bullshit in any of the above categorical areas

Rule #5: Stay on topic


I. Foreword

In an effort to combat ignorance on the internet, welcome back to Dustloop's BlazBlue Tier List Thread! In this thread, yes, we will delve into the mysterious concept of "character strength" and what that entails!

First and foremost, the general top level Japanese consensus on character strength in BBEX with a (paraphrased) quote from Satoshi:

There aren't really any weak characters in this version. While character ranks DO exist and they can influence gameplay, in this version, it's more of what good (with regard to risk vs reward) option X can a character perform in Y situation, given that Y situation can come up a total number of Z times per round.


Okay, okay, I took like a 15 minute discussion from him and boiled it down into a two sentences. But the take home lesson is, characters do differ in strength, just not to the extent where characters can't win particular matchups. To fully understand this assessment, continue reading the next section. If you're okay with just believing me, feel free to skip down to the next post where we'll start talking about tiers for real!

II. Understanding Tiers

The following is slightly WIP, I wrote this in one sitting, so it's bound to have some errors or incomplete thoughts. I'll be updating this as time goes on.

In this thread, and in this thread alone, a character strength is determined by a character's collective available options in each of the constantly shifting game states.

In BlazBlue, this is very complicated as characters have numerous particular options that can influence the game state in a way both players probably can't realize until it actually occurs. The stronger an option is, as in, the chance for it succeed versus the chance for it to fail, the better off your character is if your character has access to it. From that, you can extrapolate that the more strong options a character has in any given situation, the stronger the character is in that given situation. Thus, if a character is strong in many situations, that character is likely to be a strong character in BlazBlue.

Let's think about this in terms of Rock-Paper-Scissors. Character A can use Rock, Paper, and Scissors. Character B can use Rock, Paper, and Rock(2). In our model game of Rock-Paper-Scissors, it only has a single game state, which is where both players have made their choice and thrown Rock, Paper, or Scissors. Of course, Rock beats Scissors, Paper beats Rock, and Scissors beats Paper.

In this model, Character A has more options that do different things, and given the game state situations that could possible occur versus Character B, the Paper option has a good chance of succeeding, and absolutely no chance of losing. Between the two characters A and B, because Character A has more options, we may draw the conclusion that Character A is the stronger one, given he has more strong options in the same situations.

Of course, in this model, because Character B has access to both Rock and Paper, he can actually still win as much as Character A. How can he do so? Well, that's something that will go unsaid for the time being, but it's extremely obvious, so please think about it on your own time for the time being.

The next point of particular interest is the amount of reward a character receives upon choosing a correct option. The term "reward" is extremely loosely defined, as a reward can be something simple, such as dealing damage and building heat, something complex, such as being able to make an easier choice in an upcoming situation, or often times, a combination of the two. Being rewarded is essentially the way you win a game of BlazBlue, as you must deal damage to your opponent in order to win a round. The better the reward a character gets from an option, the more useful that option is in terms of any particular game state. Thus, characters who receives high or powerful rewards from their options tend to be strong characters in BlazBlue.

Looking back to our Rock-Paper-Scissors game model, what if Character B was rewarded twice as much for winning with Rock(2) versus just Rock? Given Character B gets a higher reward for using Rock(2), he may actually gain the edge over Character A in terms of who the stronger character is, as we now have one character with higher rewards and one character with better options in the given situation.

Empirically, there is certain to be a stronger character, but no need to do all that complex numerical analysis, the only thing that's important here is that we realize that rewards matter as much as options do.

Of course, we can confound our model even more by asking the question, "What if Character B lost twice as badly for losing with Rock(2) versus just Rock?" Fighting games are complicated aren't they?

That said, this is the end of the brief explanation on character tiers and strength. After reading this short exposition, you are intelligent enough to understand the abstract mechanics behind our tier list discussion.

III. The Existence of Opinion and Need for Assessment

The "strength" of an option is never absolute, given that players are making choices with incomplete information in real time. Thus, intelligent discussion and assessment of characters is an absolute necessity in order for progress.

I'll probably write something more long winded about this in the future, but that made sense right?

Edited by Xie, 25 January 2012 - 06:48 PM.


#2 23 January 2012 - 08:12 AM

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IV. The Current Tier Lists

No order in list unless indicated by ">>" symbol

Current Dustloop Assessment List: 5/XX/2012
S Rank: Ragna, Taokaka, Arakune, Hakumen, Valkenhayn
A Rank: Bang, Carl, Lambda, Hazama, Mu, >> Noel, Rachel, Litchi, Platinum, Relius
B Rank: Jin, Tager, Tsubaki, Makoto
Characters are listed in Cast Order, No difference in rank unless specified by >>

April Arcadia (Satoshi) 4/2/2012
S Rank: Ragna, Taokaka, Arakune, Hakumen, Lambda, Mu, Valkenhayn,
A Rank: Everyone Else
Characters are listed in Cast Order, No difference within rank

Current JP BBS Assessment List: 5/XX/2012
S Rank: Ragna, Taokaka, Arakune, Hakumen, Valkenhayn
A: Carl, Hazama, Platinum, Mu, Noel, Bang, Lambda, Noel, Litchi, Rachel
B: Everyone Else
No difference within rank

Old Lists
Current Dustloop Assessment List: 1/23/12
S Rank: Ragna, Valkenhayn, Hakumen >> Arakune, Taokaka, Hazama
A Rank: Tager, Bang, Carl, Mu >> Relius, Noel, Platinum, Lambda
B Rank: Rachel, Litchi, Jin, Tsubaki, Makoto

Current JP BBS Assessment List: 1/23/12
S Rank: Ragna, Valkenhayn, Hakumen
A Rank: Arakune, Hazama, Tager, Taokaka, Bang, Carl
B Rank: Relius, Mu, Noel, Platinum, Lambda >> Rachel, Litchi, Jin
C Rank: Tsubaki, Makoto

Current JP BBS Assessment List: 3/27/2012
S Rank: Ragna, Taokaka, Arakune, Hakumen, Valkenhayn
A: Carl, Hazama, Platinum, Mu, Noel, Bang
B: Everyone Else
No difference within rank

Satoshi List: 1/9/12
S Rank: Ragna, Valkenhayn, Hakumen, Arakune, Taokaka, Hazama, Carl
A Rank: Everyone Else



FAQ - Frequently Asked Questions

1. What's the point of tier lists? I just wanna press buttons.

Character strength, especially in BlazBlue, does not have particularly strong meaning in high level gameplay, as player skill is far more important. Nevertheless, because differences DO exist, it is worth examining them so we can better learn what makes strong characters strong and safe characters safe.

2. What's the point of this thread? No one in the universe can agree on anything.

I think that's probably the point. No matter what happens, two people rarely have the same opinion on anything, especially when it comes to their assessment of what's good and what's bad. But rather than just cross our arms and just shit on everyone else in the back of our minds, why not take a step towards reaching a general consensus? The goal of this thread is not to eventually discover THE INDISPUTABLE PROOF OF PROPER CHARACTER STRENGTH ORDERING, but to discuss and evaluate our opinions on character strength.

3. Why are the rules for this thread so harsh? It takes too much work.

In the past, a vast number of Tier thread discussions quickly devolve into really bad argument poop fests that eventually renders a thread unreadable. The formatting rules exist to stifle the ability to make a stupid post and force a potential poster to think. Less is more in a thread like this. I, as well as other mods viewing this thread, are very lenient towards intelligent posts not following the proper formatting, but there is absolutely no mercy otherwise.

Surely, there is more to come as this thread develops. Enjoy!

Edited by Xie, 22 May 2012 - 11:18 PM.


#3 23 January 2012 - 08:25 AM

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V. Character Parameters

All character parameters will eventually have descriptions to help people discuss stuff as well as help newcomers to the thread, but it will be a day or two before I finish it. If people post on it, I will make those my priority to fill out. A lot of the current parameters are decided on my whims, so they will be updated accordingly.

By examining character parameters, we will likely be able to find things to talk about, and we will likely be able to move characters around with greater ease if we can compare individual parameters on a regular basis versus the overall strength of a character. You will likely find yourself discussing individual parameters for a worthy length of time before characters can actually be moved from one Rank to ano

Character Parameters: Will be rated from C- to S+. Each parameter is weighed in its own category, so please take a look at each description to fully understand how the assessment was made.
Reward Assessment: A general outlook on a character’s average damage and heat gain, taking into account how often maximum or minimum damage situations can occur. Also assess other potential rewards.
Neutral Viability: A review of how well the character fairs in neutral situations, especially in respect to how the character can shift into an offensive or damage dealing state, as well as avoid being put into a defensive or receiving damage state.
Offensive Viability: An overview of the character’s ability to create damage opportunities when they have the advantage, as well as prevent the opponent from escaping or safely retaliating.
Defensive Viability: An evaluation of the character’s ability to escape from situations where they are at a disadvantage or create opportunities to retaliate.
Versatility: A flavorful descriptor with little impact on tier placing, a brief assessment of how many options the character has at any given time. Ranks: Very Specialized > Specialized > Well Rounded > Very Well Rounded
One-Chance: A flavorful descriptor with little impact on tier placing, an assessment of how well the character can make a comeback in a one-chance situation. Takes into account meter availability, potential mixups, useful reversals, and damage.
Current Assessment: General assessment of all factors. Current placement on the list

Ragna
Reward Assessment: S+ Rank - Ragna can deal consistently very high damage in many situations, such as during mixups, anti-air, and in general spacing battles. His ability to adjust combos and improve random damage output by using heat is also among the strongest in the game.
Neutral Viability: A+ Rank - Ragna is largely a mid-close range type character with very dominating screen presence, especially against other mid-close or close type characters. Between Jump A, Jump C, Jump D, 5B, 5C, and 6A, he can excel in any standard spacing situation, often winning outright or forcing the opponent to block.
Offensive Viability: A- Rank - Ragna has access to multiple multi-ranged high and low attacks, as well as multiple options to continue offense and prevent an opponent’s escape. His combos often end in forced emergency tech, low air tech, or forced stagger state, allowing him to continue his offense with fewer guessing games than most other characters. Furthermore, escaping opponents are often forced back into his powerful mid range game.
Defensive Viability: S+ Rank - Ragna currently possesses the most useful DP type attack in the game, Inferno Divider, which is strictly a level above other DP type attacks in terms of speed, hitbox, reward, and availability. The very existence of the attack passively weakens an opponent’s offensive viability, especially when Ragna has 50 heat to Rapid Cancel. Combined with system defensive options (jumping, barrier, ib, normals, and backstep), Ragna has one of the best defensive plans in the game, and is complemented by his ability to go back into offense or neutral immediately if he succeeds.
Versatility: Well Rounded
One Chance: S Rank
Current Assessment: S Rank - Ragna is a superior spacing character with few flaws.

Valkenhayn
Reward Assessment: S+ Rank - Extremely high damage output and heat gain on many confirms. Many combos often leave the opponent in the corner, which often can lead to another high damage combo on the next hit.
Neutral Viability: S+ Rank - Human mode has some fairly usable normals at mid-long range, but as a Wolf, many opponents have difficulty performing even basic movement options safely when being watched by Valkenhayn. Extremely high mobility and proper anti-airs in both forms greatly aids Valkenhayn's neutral game. A mistake in neutral will immediately allow Valkenhayn to land a hit or force an opponent to block an extremely fast mixup.
Offensive Viability: A+ Rank - Extremely powerful mixup options and good knockdown setups in the corner, but limited blockstring potential stifles the character's ability to have overwhelming offense at all times. All mixup options also force Valkenhayn to guess somewhat, though the guess is largely in his favor.
Defensive Viability: B+ Rank - Possess one of the most powerful backsteps in the game. While not normally good enough to receive a B+ Rank on its own, the addition of instant barrier allows Valkenhayn to escape back to neutral (where he is excellent) easier than other characters. His guard point is not very strong, but allows him to beat certain offensive tools on reaction.
Versatility: Very Specialized
One Chance: A Rank
Current Assessment: S Rank - Valkenhayn is a technical, high damage character that takes good situation recognition to play.

Hakumen
Reward Assessment: S Rank - Damage output and meter gain are both very high from many traditional starters, especially in terms of meter spent in this version. Combos often carry full screen, which can often lead to economical corner combos or extremely high damage metered mixup combos. His combos have the added bonus of having only one or two viable burst points, which adds to his offense.
Neutral Viability: A+ Rank - Hakumen can gain the advantage by waiting in a neutral defensive state and without committing (by passively increasing his potential reward by building meter), something most characters cannot do. He has access to many powerful Neutral tools that strong deter an opponent's approach, whether it be from ground or air. Jump B's improvement lets him also go on the offensive if the opponent does not quickly respond to an IAD.
Offensive Viability: B- Rank - Hakumen does not have many mixups and many of the ones he does have require meter to perform. Because of this, opponents are often able to return to neutral fairly easily compared to other characters, but this situation is still somewhat favorable for Hakumen, who is powerful in Neutral.
Defensive Viability: S Rank - Hakumen does not have an invincible Backstep, but instead uses his Drive as his primary defensive option. Though not strictly favorable to a backstep in some situations, there are many situations where the presence of his Drive completely nullifies some character's offensive options. The presence of his Drive also passively weakens an opponent's defensive viability simply by existing - opponents may not be able to afford to take the damage and positioning trade that may occur from a successful Drive attempt. Fear of the drive also gives Hakumen the ability to reversal with the invincible Hotaru, which is not invincible due to the jump startup, but is completely safe on block and difficult for most to punish on whiff.
Versatility: Specialized
One Chance: B Rank
Current Assessment: S Rank - Hakumen is an extremely powerful defensive spacing character with an extremely safe game plan.

Arakune*
Reward Assessment: S Rank - A complicated assessment. This is largely interpreted as the average damage dealt by an Arakune based on the number of openings per round and how curse meter is technically a reward for combo completion. It is possible for Arakune to kill with two corner combos or four midscreen combos, which actually makes him extremely very powerful. Once Arakune has 50 meter stocked, F of G can make it extremely difficult for an opponent to make a comeback if Arakune is not pressured to use it on defense.
Neutral Viability: A+ Rank - Another complicated assessment. Arakune does not play the neutral game like most characters, but does control space in certain ways. He can create projectiles to take up space and can safely move around by canceling his airdash into a barrier very quickly. While he has a lot of trouble against very mobile or characters with lots of projectiles, he is completely overwhelming when the opponent is cursed.
Offensive Viability: S+ Rank - Does not have very good forward mobility, but at close range, he has a very complex mixup using rising j.B into IAD j.B, which is extremely powerful when executed properly. Outside of j.B, he has a high reward overhead and numerous jump cancelable attacks, which allow him back off anytime if necessary. While curse is active, he can essentially do anything he wants and the opponent has extremely few options but to guard successfully against very difficult to see mixups.
Defensive Viability: C+ Rank - Perhaps among the worst defensive options in the game, Arakune does not have access to a meterless reversal of any sort and has fairly weak applications of even system defense mechanics. Though in some matchups his backstep may come in handy, it is one of the most unsafe in the game if the opponent is prepared to deal with it. However, his high resource/risk manuvers (Gold Burst, Counter Assault + Super, Wakeup Spider) are all very extremely high reward, and force the opponent to be very wary of overcomitting, which can sometimes allow Arakune to escape.
Versatility: Very Specialized
One Chance S Rank
Current Assessment: S Rank - Arakune is an unconventional character with many explosive strengths accompanied by particular weaknesses.
*All values are an average of curse and non curse situations

Taokaka
Reward Assessment: S- Rank - Taokaka's damage from her neutral game and hit/throw mixups is fairly high, but she cannot combo standing opponents unless they are somewhat close. She can perform AB2 combos form many situations, all of which lead to a devastatingly high amount of damage and also leave her with some extra AB2 meter for another oncoming mixup for even more damage.
Neutral Viability: S+ Rank - Taokaka's mobility is completely unparalleled in BlazBlue. Combine this with a fairly strong ground based anti-air and a very large tool-kit of different normals, Taokaka has every tool to defeat any character in a standard neutral battle.
Offensive Viability: A- Rank - Taokaka's mixup game relies mostly on the speed of her mobility to create unpredictable throws and cross-ups. She lacks traditional okizeme, but the air tech situations she places her opponents in often gives her an advantageous position that can be seen somewhat like an oncoming mixup from a blockstring.
Defensive Viability: B- Rank - Taokaka relies mostly on system defenses combined with her mobility to escape from pressure. She can also take advantage of low profile attacks such as 2b and low invulnerable attacks like 6b as highrisk escape tools, but largely lacks reliable defensive options as her Counter Assault is also extremely weak. Her backstep is above average, but Taokaka's low health can also mean that she can die in but 2 or 3 mistakes, whereas other characters would often get maybe 1 or 2 more attempts.
Versatility: Specialized
One Chance A Rank
Current Assessment: S Rank - Taokaka is the most powerful mobility oriented character in the game.

Hazama
Reward Assessment: A+ Rank - Damage is extremely low without meter or certain specific situational starters. However, once 50 meter is obtained, Hazama can deal huge damage and rebuild large amounts of heat from many different starters.
Neutral Viability: S Rank - Hazama can control large amount of space with his projectiles. has access to good movement options, and even to fairly strong anti-air attacks, making it difficult for characters to approach Hazama to begin with. Hazama can even use these combined tools to shift into an offensive situation just by controlling spacing correctly.
Offensive Viability: A- Rank - Hazama has numerous blockstring and mixup options, though many are low reward without any heat to back him up. Once an opponent is spooked by his more basic options, he can start doing some more complex movement options with his chains which are virtually unseeable unless one is also a Hazama player.
Defensive Viability: B Rank - Though the risk/reward nature of Houtenjin as a reversal has been greatly altered by his character design, it remains a viable and fearsome reversal attack that can instantly change the flow of an entire round.
Versatility: Well Rounded
One Chance: A Rank
Current Assessment: A Rank - Extremely versatile projectile character that is slow starting at first, but quickly turns into a very deadly foe.

Tager
Reward Assessment: S- Rank - With magnetism, Tager's average damage output and heat gain far outclasses many other characters in Extend. From a single hit, he can build over 50 heat and turn his next combo or mixup attempt into an extremely painful one. Without magnetism, he will need to spend resources to deal big damage from everything, but is still far from a weak character in terms of reward and due to overal meter availability.
Neutral Viability: C- Rank - Tager lacks mobility options and possess very few methods of pinning down very mobile or long-ranged opponents. He has options to allow him to fight mid-close and mid-far ranged opponents with defensive spacing tools, but is completely lacking in safe or effective offensive spacing tools. Spark Bolt is a very powerful one chance spacing tool, but because everyone is prepared for it, it is less effective.
Offensive Viability: S Rank - All of Tager's combos can now end in Gadget Finger, a point blank forced Emergency Tech, or some kind of air reset. These are all situations that heavily favor Tager in terms of mixup potential and a moment of hesitation or fear can cause an opponent to take a huge amount of damage, often putting them back into another really bad situation. Because some of the mixups are strictly 1 shot guesses however, they can allow the opponent to escape back to neutral, where he is the weakest.
Defensive Viability: B- Rank - While Tager has high health and access to powerful defensive options that allow often him to go straight from defense to offense, they are somewhat high risk and often cause him to take big damage if they fail. He also is vulnerable to rising overheads and forced to block blockstrings and mixups that otherwise do not work on other characters.
Versatility: Very Specialized
One Chance: * Rank
Current Assessment: B Rank - Tager has lots of trouble getting in, but once in, he can win by forcing an opponent to make only a few mistakes.

Bang
Reward Assessment: A Rank - Bang has very respectable damage in many situations and but can spend heat and nails to increase his reward in very meaningful ways. He can also carry opponent's very far with his combos and can perform corner combos from a fairly long distance from the corner. During FRKZ, average damage greatly increases, but taken into account that 50 meter was already spent to create the opportunity and a combo was used as a seal combo instead of damage combo, it cannot always be strictly seen as an increase.
Neutral Viability: A+ Rank - Bang possess a wide variety of tools for neutral game play. He has good movement and a fair assortment of good spacing normals, but lacks a strong anti-air and often comes out as the underdog in mid-long range ground battles. He has a very powerful limited resource in nails which can use to overcome differences in spacing strength, but because it is a limited resource, there is additional risk of running out each time it is used. However, the very existence of nails renders certain options that opponents possess into unsafe actions, so certain players may find themselves unable to use certain options, despite nails having not yet been thrown. Guard points can be used in specific situations to create one chance momentum swings, and their existence increases Bang's neutral viability in certain cases. Using nail bumpers, he can match the timing of a very mobile foe, but it takes openings and resources to do so. During FRKZ, netural gameplay becomes much more unsafe, but has the potential to overwhelm opponents with its increased mobility power.
Offensive Viability: A Rank - Bang has numerous offensive tools, with multiple relatively safe overheads and a fairly good damage command throw that can be Rapid Canceled for high damage. Nails can also be spent to increase his offensive abilities on tools such as D nails or on bumper arrangements. During FRKZ, he trades his normal mixup abilities for FRKZ specific mixups, which are very fast, but very unsafe compared to his normal offensive tool set.
Defensive Viability: A Rank - Bang does not strictly have any powerful reversal options without meter, but the existence of Guard Points makes certain offensive options from opponents seem far less attractive, especially when faced with the possibility of the big damage a successful hit will cause. Furthermore, once he reaches 50 meter he has access a variety of different defensive options with varying effectiveness and risk. FRKZ activation as a reversal is likely the most powerful reversal in the game, allowing him to deal huge damage against otherwise relatively safe offensive options. During FRKZ, he cannot normal block, which greatly lowers his defense against many different types of mixups, such as ambiguous crossups, but can potentially allow him to escape from pressure more easily.
Versatility: Very Well Rounded
One Chance: A Rank
Current Assessment: A Rank - Bang is a versatile character with a toolbox of special ninja tricks.
*FRKZ is taken into account for all assessments.

Carl
Reward Assessment: S Rank - Carl is a very damaging character in many situations regardless of screen positioning and starting even in solo situations. Though largely not necessary, he can spend heat set up guaranteed unblockable setups for extra damage or beef up the damage of his normal combos.
Neutral Viability: B- Rank - While Carl possess very powerful defensive spacing tools, his ability to chase down characters is relatively weak. He also possess limited movement in this version having lost his kara fastfall, so he is reliant on his sister to help him move safely. Because constantly attacking with the sister consumes her gauge, there are moments where not using her is the correct course of action, which gives him a huge drop in neutral power for those moments.
Offensive Viability: S Rank - Carl possesses powerful repeating pressure at the expenditure of sister meter, and can set up extremely difficult to block high/low or left/right mixups in the middle of blockstrings and during okizeme situations. He can also spend meter to create a variety of extremely difficult to see high/low mixups or unblockables.
Defensive Viability: B- Rank - His backstep and Vivace are both decent tools for escaping back to neutral, but are both somewhat unsafe against a well prepared opponent. Carl has low health and no real reversal option what so ever, so he is very reliant on successful Counter Assaults to escape very strong pressure. Luckily, he is not reliant on meter to deal good damage, so he can make use of Counter Assaults quite often.
Versatility: Very Specialized
One Chance: B Rank
Current Assessment: A Rank - Carl is a character with difficult means of capturing opponents, but a very powerful offense if he can force an opponent to block.

Mu
Reward Assessment: A Rank - Mu's damage output is fairly high in many situations. Her ability to carry from midscreen into a corner combo is also very high compared to most characters.
Neutral Viability: A+ Rank - Mu has among the strongest Mid-long range normals in the game, combined with multiple anti-air options and good projectiles. If an opponent hesitates too much in confronting Mu, she can forcibly enter the fray with good stein formations and protect herself in guaranteed ways.
Offensive Viability: B+ Rank - Mu lacks particularly strong mixups and blockstrings in a vacuum, but coming from okizeme or a good Totsuka setup, she can create traps and mask her overhead attempts. Her overhead 6B is relatively fast for a standing overhead, and is also largely safe. Her ability to remove primers is also fairly strong.
Defensive Viability: A+ Rank - Mu's DP, Tsunugui, is extremely strong as it is not a normal invincible move, but a Super Autoguard that cannot be thrown. This allows Mu to beat safe jumps and clip attacks that would otherwise be safe to DP attacks. Combined with Mu's long backdash and other system defense mechanics, she can make it difficult to pressure her safely.
Versatility: Very Well Rounded
One Chance B Rank
Current Assessment: A Rank - Mu is a setup oriented character that also packs good neutral, defensive, and offensive tools.

Edited by Xie, 22 May 2012 - 11:19 PM.


#4 23 January 2012 - 10:06 AM

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Relius
Reward Assessment: A- Rank - Relius deals fairly high damage in the corner and at the expense of doll meter, but otherwise is fairly middling. His doll and heat meter expenditure is not very efficient in terms of damage, but can give him extra damage if he needs it. His attacks are difficult to confirm from far away, but very easy if the doll is active. Relius deals very bad damage without the doll present, but often gets good okizeme in exchange.
Neutral Viability: B+ Rank - Relius has fair movement with very average mid ranged normals with somewhat slow anti-air options, but also lacks a safe air-to-air attack. He possesses Val Lanto and rising j.6D/j2.D tricks give him a lot of screen presence and can force an opponent to block or move. He also has a vast number of situational tools that can give him the edge in many situations against many characters, but because Ignis or Relius can be hit out of many of these situations, Relius will lose resources and can be vulnerable without Ignis. Overall, this makes him very weak against the strong midrange characters and a
Offensive Viability: A Rank - Long, repeatable blockstrings, but not nearly as robust as Carl as his meter is much more limited and his actual mixup options are much slower and more limited. Still, the amount of variance and tricks he possess makes it challenging to deal with his pressure. Relius also possesses a fair amount of okizeme options, but most of the stronger ones cost Ignis meter.
Defensive Viability: B- Rank - Led Ley is fairly weak as a reversal versus a seasoned player, but still acts as a minor deterrent to using high active frame attacks to punish backsteps, so used in conjunction with his backstep he does have some options. Overall, not too powerful on defense as his 2a and 5a are both weak.
Versatility: Specialized
One Chance: B Rank
Current Assessment: A- Rank - Relius is a technical character with unique spacing tools, but largely reliant on syngergy with his doll Ignis

Noel
Reward Assessment: S- Rank - Noel deals very minimal damage from a few of her confirms, but her overall damage output and heat gain is far above the average character for a similar confirm. In practical high-level gameplay, her close, crouching, and corner confirms put her on par with big damage characters like Ragna, and also possess similar ability in increasing damage output by spending meter. She can rake in absurd damage from punishing or using buppa drive attacks to play a heavily favored risk/reward battle with the opponent as well, often capable of stealing rounds that would be difficult for other characters to turn around.
Neutral Viability: B+ Rank - Noel possess very good movement speed, but is relatively underwhelming in spacing battles. In both ground to ground and air to air fights, she can definitely outclass opponents, but she definitely needs to be active in closing in or forcing an opponent to whiff an attack. Optical Barrel serves as a minor annoyance for most characters as a projectile, but is somewhat unrewarding for the risk in many cases. Noel play high risk spacing battles with her ability to avoid certain types of attacks while attacking, but is certainly unsafe if the opponent is playing patiently.
Offensive Viability: B Rank - Noel possess all of the basic blockstring and mixup tools as well as a few more outlandish ones, but for the most part does not possess strong okizeme due to the nature of her combos. She relies mostly on forcing the opponent back into blockstun, where she will use her relatively plain mixup ability to open up opponents.
Defensive Viability: A- Rank - Noel posses no meterless invulnerable reversal options of any kind, but can play a hefty risk/reward game with her Drive attacks that can avoid certain attacks. Opponents often must play more passively on offense or risk taking absurd damage from her reversal Drive attacks, which reduces an opponent's offensive viability passively. Her Backstep and Counter Assault are both average, and Fenrir is a worthy reversal as it is the fastest super autoguard move in the game.
Versatility: Well Rounded
One Chance: A Rank
Current Assessment: A- Rank - Noel is a high damage speed based character with some unconventional tools.

Platinum*
Reward Assessment: B+ Rank - Platinum's damage is largely situational, but tends to deal relatively low damage from any confirm that does not have a good item or strong starter in the corner. Platinum's midscreen damage is by far the lowest without any tools, but using meter and items, it is possible to increase the damage to above average levels.
Neutral Viability: B+ Rank - Platinum has a fairly competent midrange game, possessing very good mid-long range normals and useful anti-air attacks. Platinum is fairly weak at mid range due lack of a mid range speed normal, but can compensate by spacing properly or changing air momentum. With items, Platinum can control different types of space, but summoning items and changing items is somewhat risky depending on the matchup.
Offensive Viability: S- Rank - Platinum possess extremely variable blockstrings, okizeme, resets, and mixups. It is extremely difficult to successfully escape from Platinum once you have been knocked down once, and once caught Platinum's mixup game can easily lead to game over for characters without a good reversal option. Item availability creates huge variation in the types of mixups and blockstrings Platinum can perform, often greatly confounding the defender.
Defensive Viability: B- Rank - Platinum posses no meterless invincible reversal without the bat item, but the lack of availability often causes it to succeed when they do have it, and over compensation for it often causes opponents to take excessive care, both of which are mindsets that favor Platinum. Platinum's other defensive elements are about average, but the lack of any real ability to consistently stop an opponent causes for some difficulty. Overall, a very earned B- rank.
Versatility: Well Rounded
One Chance: A Rank
Current Assessment: A- Rank - Platinum possesses many extremely odd tools accompanied by useful spacing and movement tools.
*Takes into account item preparation and availability

Lambda
Reward Assessment: A- Rank - Lambda deals exceptional damage and builds good heat with the right resources or starter, but tends to deal small damage without certain conditions accompanying the hit. Her combos are difficult to burst, which is another bonus. Often times she cannot deal good damage twice in a row without spending heat, even with the buff to Gravity Seed's regeneration rate. Even so, in practical battles, Lambda will be able to deal good damage if her resources are managed properly.
Neutral Viability: S- Rank - Lambda is one of the most powerful characters at dictating the pace of a match. She can control much of the entire screen with her projectiles, and often can make an approach if the opponent hesitates. She lacks good short or mid-ranged attacks, but possesses a good number of very good anti-air attacks. Certain characters can give Lambda trouble in spacing battles, but overall she can win by avoiding unsafe choices and taking advantage of her good movement.
Offensive Viability: A Rank - Lambda has good mixups, blockstrings, and okizeme options, but lacks often lacks the ability to choose both damage and okizeme in a combo when midscreen. The existence of 4b however, makes it difficult for the opponent to block safely during any okizeme or blockstring situation, which is extremely scary and often game changing for most players. However, though variable, her blockstrings are somewhat weak versus opponents who jump/backstep and are mostly slightly disadvantageous on block, both of which often cause the opponent to return to neutral. Though her options are good in neutral, this is a definite weak point of Lambda's offensive game.
Defensive Viability: C+ Rank - Lambda lacks a meterless reversal option and largely relies on system defense mechanics to escape from pressure. Unfortunately, her normals are also weak at dealing with pressure, so she often is forced to rely on her backstep or jump to escape. Because her options are funneled in this manner, well informed opponents are often able to catch her and punish her. Her Counter Assault and Calamity Sword are both useful with 50 Heat, but losing that 50 Heat is a painful loss if she lands a big opportunity with the heat to capitalize.
Versatility: Specialized
One Chance: A Rank
Current Assessment: A Rank - Lambda is a powerful zoning character with good movement and projectiles, but has somewhat apparent weaknesses.

Rachel
Reward Assessment: B Rank - Rachel is able to deal moderate damage and perform good corner carry, but both require resources and/or good starting hits. Often times combos need to be cut short because of resource management, and resources also need to be spent to recover resources and maintain a knockdown. Her best spacing and strongest mixup options also deal relatively low damage, which overall lead to very weak average damage for Rachel as a whole.
Neutral Viability: A Rank - With enough time and resources, Rachel has incredibly good tools for controlling space, including lobelias, pumpkin, 6A, and 6B. When played correctly, she can easily outclass a character without similar tools. However, because it does take resources and time to set up her tools, some matchups and situations are very difficult for Rachel to deal with.
Offensive Viability: A+ Rank - Rachel's blockstrings and mixup are both very powerful, complete with forced okizeme if the proper resources are spent or the combo is appropriately cut short. However, because resources spent on her blockstrings and mixups are also required to optimize her combos, there is a limited number of times either mixup and blockstring options can be used without overusing her resources and rendering her unable to combo. Because of this, while she possess S+ class blockstrings and mixups, their limited usage prevents her from really taking advantage of it.
Defensive Viability: B- Rank - Rachel has a guard point, which is fairly unsafe, but it is possible to beat certain blockstrings and does serve as a reversal in many cases. She can enhance her backstep with wind, allowing her to cover a lot of space and escape from pressure better than other characters with a normal backstep. She can also enhance her neutral tech with wind, which also allows her to render certain okizeme unusable on Rachel. However, she has absolutely no invincible reversal, so most characters focus on rendering these maneuvers useless.
Versatility: Very Specialized
One Chance: B Rank
Current Assessment: A- Rank - Rachel is a tool based zoning character who can outclass other characters by spending wind and other resources.

Litchi
Reward Assessment: B+ Rank - Litchi's damage and heat gain are fairly unstable, as the majority of her good damage and corner carry coming from situational hits. However, her ability to do a corner combo from further distances is above average. Her corner damage is slightly below average without specific starters, but the okizeme that results from it can deal big damage. Her ability increase her damage output with heat is somewhat limited, but is definitely doable in many situations.
Neutral Viability: A- Rank - Litchi has an extremely wide variety of spacing and projectile tools, but they each have unique weaknesses that allow certain opponents to take advantage of them. The overall effectiveness of a her tools is extremely variable due to their nature, but overall, in neutral situations she is very strong against characters who rely on close to mid range combat, somewhat limited against fast projectile characters, weak against characters with strong defensive spacing tools, very strong against setup or limited mobility characters, and approximately even with movement based characters.
Offensive Viability: A Rank - Litchi's blockstrings and mixups are fairly varied, but rely largely on the player to mix up staff setting and releasing in a way to obscure redashes and mixup attempts. When cornering her opponent, her okizeme options are among the best in the entire game with numerous viable choices, but largely lacks the same ability when midscreen. Still, the overwhelming power of her corner mixup with meter can easily cause a huge momentum shift and allow her to make big comebacks or create huge leads.
Defensive Viability: B- Rank - Litchi's backstep is special in that it can be done twice, giving it additional invincibility at a point where most backsteps would be still in their vulnerable state, making it a fairly useful defensive tool. Tsubame Gaeshi is one of the best DP type moves in the game in terms of size and speed, but cannot be Rapid Canceled, is not always available, and cannot be done twice in a row.
Versatility: Very Well Rounded
One Chance: A Rank
Current Assessment: A- Rank - Litchi is a character huge of unique spacing number tools with and without her staff.

Jin
Reward Assessment: B Rank - Overall, Jin's damage tends to be on the lower side of the entire cast, but as a sum of its overall parts, relies far less on situational hits and deals solid damage from non-situational ones. Unfortunately, because he is also very average at increasing his damage output with meter as well, so he cannot create big comeback situations with his damage, outside of hitting an opponent with Hirensou while they are cornered.
Neutral Viability: B+ Rank - Jin has many fair mid range normal attacks, accompanied by many good air-to-air attacks. He possess numerous situational anti-airs that make it difficult for most characters to approach. Overall, while well rounded in the neutral game, he lacks tools that are overwhelmingly strong in any situation. His projectiles are situationally useful, but overall his game plan will revolve around approaching and spacing out opponents.
Offensive Viability: B Rank - Jin's mixup relies strongly on throws and resets moreso than other characters. He has many good options for creating throw attempts, fake throw attempts, and TRM mixups, which tend to be fairly safe overall as it is not possible to punish Jin for good damage in the majority of these situations. He has one of the fastest overheads in the game, but it cannot be used except when he has meter. His resets are very basic, but force an opponent into difficult to react to 50/50 situations, which makes them fairly powerful when they can be set up.
Defensive Viability: A- Rank - Jin has a fair number of defensive options that are extremely enhanced with meter. He has an extremely slow, but extremely invincible DP type attack in Rehhyou that is not too useful on its own, but when paired with his fast, long range, 25% meter DP Hirensou, can become a strong deterrent to certain blockstrings and okizeme options. Yukikaze and Hiyoku Getsumei are both situational tools he has access to with 50% heat, but certainly have their uses in defensive situations.
Versatility: Very Well Rounded
One Chance: B Rank
Current Assessment: B Rank - Jin is a well rounded spacing character with no glaring weaknesses, but no overwhelming strengths.

Tsubaki
Reward Assessment: B Rank - Tsubaki's damage situation is very different from most characters, as her midscreen damage is fairly good from non-situational confirms, but her situational confirms and corner combos tend to lead to relatively low damage compared to other characters without any resources like Install or Heat. However, with ample resources, her damage and heat gain has the potential to surpass most characters in a similar situation, making her sort of strange in terms of game flow.
Neutral Viability: B Rank - Without Install meter, Tsubaki is mostly a close-mid range character who relies primarily on her normals and movement to close the gap and win spacing battles on the ground. Her anti-air and air-to-air are both somewhat competent, but as a whole, she cannot force most midrange style opponents to approach from the air instead of staying on the ground, so it is not as useful versus many. Her 5B is very average as a mid range poke, but does benefit from the lack of an extended hitbox in the pre animation frames. Her abilities greatly increase by expending Install Meter, as 236D, j236D, and 214D are all very powerful tools in neutral, but because they cost Install Meter, which cannot be easily obtained in neutral, it is difficult to say that her neutral game is strong if they are reliant on these. She can use her aerial special attacks to also move and cover vectors that are not reachable by most characters, but these maneuvers are unsafe without meter and should be done with extreme confidence and/or caution.
Offensive Viability: B Rank - Tsubaki relies mostly on variance for her blockstring and mixup options, many of which are not very fast on their own, but are relatively safe if needed to be. She has access to an unblockable attack and a relatively safe overhead, but largely relies on charge canceling and normal blockstrings to stop opponents from moving and keeping her blockstrings variable. She has numerable resets, so with enough variability, it is more than enough to create an oppressive offense.
Defensive Viability: B+ Rank - Tsubaki's possess a DP that is not invincible on the first active frame, cause it to trade versus many attacks. It can also be pushed and counts as a projectile, which add to its potential countermeasures, but is very fast and has fair reach for a DP, so it is still usable on wakeup or versus certain blockstrings. With install meter, Tsubaki gains a real DP and access to follow ups that can potentially make the DP more safe. Even though it is not always available, the existence of a potential D dp makes the A dp passively more useful, giving Tsubaki potential options on defense.
Versatility: Well Rounded
One Chance: B Rank
Current Assessment: B Rank - Tsubaki has many solid tools, but is largely dependent on her resource availability and management.

Makoto
Reward Assessment: B+ Rank - Makoto generally deals fairly average damage in most situations, with far above average from A attack starters and relatively good midscreen damage. She is fairly good at spending meter to improve her combos and positioning as well, though she cannot use 100 meter to end a combo with maximum damage. While her corner carry is also quite fair, she cannot start a corner combo from a very far distance, which hinders her ability to maximize her damage.
Neutral Viability: A Rank - Makoto has a full host of good normals and ground movement, allowing her to dominate the ground game against many characters. Her 5B does not move her vulnerable hitbox forward as much as moves of a similar nature and speed, which gives her an edge in high level spacing battles. Her ability to punish whiffed normals with a dashing attack is also among the best, further adding to her ground dominance. In the event her opponent has given up on the ground game, her air-to-air and anti-air game are also among the strongest, which make it further difficult for many characters to fight her. She also possess good one chance tools, 3C and Space Counter, which while dangerous to employ on a regular basis, can create match changing situations if they are successful. Comet Cannon and Break Shot are good for starting the initial flow of a spacing battle, but should be used as such and not as an actual spacing tool. Makoto's main limitation is her relatively below average ability to deal with mid-long and long range tools.
Offensive Viability: B Rank - Though relatively fast and useful, Makoto has relatively limited normal chains, which is further limited by the limit on A attacks and is requires good guard confirmation to get around instant barrier. Furthermore, in spacing battles, often times an opponent will resign to blocking instead of attacking, which, if one of her many good spacing normals was used, causes further limitation due to their recovery. 6B is one of the fastest overheads with a meterless reward in the game, and the two Lunatic Upper Follow-ups cannot be punished easily, but both options cause her offense to end when guarded correctly. Astroid Vision gives Makoto many difficult to see options, but outside of okizeme, are relatively unsafe.
Defensive Viability: B Rank - Makoto's DP, Lunatic Upper is very weak against low profile attacks, but has decent invincibility and can be used in close quarters against most characters. Space Counter acts as a deterrent to certain blockstrings and okizeme, but is more for reaction punishing moreso than attempting to guess against an opponent. Her normals at close quarters are very useful, and her backstep is average.
Versatility: Well Rounded
One Chance: B rank
Current Assessment: B Rank - Makoto is a dominant close-mid fighter with good normals.

Edited by Xie, 22 May 2012 - 05:52 PM.


#5 23 January 2012 - 11:55 AM

Dusk Thanatos
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(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) (Not really)

Edited by Xie, 23 January 2012 - 03:41 PM.

If you're in western VA, hit up this thread.  <//> Twitter


#6 23 January 2012 - 12:13 PM

toanenadiz
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Question: Xie, I just wanted to make sure that the current Dustloop tier list comes from your characters parameters post, right? I would like to know because you did not post this information

(Post Modified; Formatting)

Edited by Xie, 23 January 2012 - 04:06 PM.

if you cant win a match by only hitting D then your journey is not yet complete


#7 23 January 2012 - 12:30 PM

kotokot
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Question: what is with Complexity parameter? Learning char or matchup with char? i feel something wrong with Mk,Hz,Rg being in same C rank, B rank Ar, A rank Ba and S - Mu :psyduck:
Arakune isn't that easy, Bang and Mu are definitely easier to play and etc.
I'll try to write more when will have free time.


(Post Modified; Formatting)

Edited by Xie, 23 January 2012 - 04:06 PM.


#8 23 January 2012 - 01:46 PM

WolfCrimson
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I don't know if this is too early and I should wait for the in-depth analysis for Bang, but personally I don't feel his individual parameter ranks are completely correct, so I just wanna ask:

Question: Did you consider and factor in FRKZ? You've mentioned Arakune`s parameters take precurse and curse into consideration, as well as Platinum's random item availability, but haven't done so for Bang, whose FRKZ is a huge game state changer, giving Bang SSS+ offensive viability and SSS+ neutral viability but poorer defense. Not to mention how the change to his C-Nail makes him capable of getting 4 seals in 1 combo and gives him a good amount of heat.

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Edited by Xie, 23 January 2012 - 04:06 PM.

Hype values are unaffected by proration.


#9 23 January 2012 - 02:24 PM

Spud
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what is with Complexity parameter? Learning char or matchup with char? i feel something wrong with Mk,Hz,Rg being in same C rank, B rank Ar, A rank Ba and S - Mu :psyduck:
Arakune isn't that easy, Bang and Mu are definitely easier to play and etc.
I'll try to write more when will have free time.


Answer: Complexity and versatility don't affect the tier ranking by much, if at all. They're just there to give more info on the character. And character difficulty doesn't apply either; tier lists assume that both players are at the same reasonably high level with their respective characters.

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Edited by Xie, 23 January 2012 - 04:07 PM.

:?:

#10 23 January 2012 - 02:41 PM

Linear04
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Answer: @WolfCrimson Imo frkz doesn't give sss rank, it just increases risk and reward at the same time. Frkz has trouble in neutral with anyone with a good anti air or large hitbox move. Against some characters I would even go as far to say that its detrimental to his game

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Edited by Linear04, 23 January 2012 - 07:44 PM.


#11 23 January 2012 - 03:42 PM

StarGazer
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Xie is putting an amazing effort on this, don't ruin it guys.

Makoto
Reward Assessment: B+ Rank
Neutral Viability: A Rank
Offensive Viability: B Rank
Defensive Viability: B Rank
Versatility: B Rank
Complexity: C Rank
Current Assessment: B Rank


*Wears a monocle*

Reward Assessment: B+ Rank - I agree on this tho I still need to see how good her 2A 50 heat combos midscreen, and how close to the corner you need to be to confirm into a corner combo. It could be better or worse, Makoto reward is still under devlopment.

Neutral Viability: A Rank --> B Rank - I disagree, Makoto biggest problem is the neutral game, especially when there are some character that can completly shut down Makoto. In general, 5B nerf will make it a bit harder to play footsies as its less safer now on whiff and you cant confirm it into 2A on CH anymore as well as taking the momentum with it on block. 2A is still there but there are two problems. 1- The tip dash speed nerf = less danger zone 2- with 5B being a bit worse = Makoto heavily depends on 2A now = easy to read her game and space it properly.

Offensive Viability: B Rank - I agree, even on air confirms into Corona upper, she cant apply some oki like Ragna's axe kick. She have nothing special and hopefully you can still apply something after 214ACCCC like safe jump j.CC.

Defensive Viability: B Rank - I agree. Makoto have defensive options but they are just bad and not rewarding without 50 heat.

Versatility & Complexity: I dont really understand what they are supposed to mean :?: assuming it means the number of options the character have and being unpredictable then it should be around B or C Rank.

Current Assessment: B Rank

I have 8K matches with Makoto, am not saying this to show off, just to make sure that people don't think am writing with no knowledge or am trying to QQ about how she is. Oh and this is just an opinion, nothing is 100% accurate.

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Edited by Xie, 23 January 2012 - 06:16 PM.


#12 23 January 2012 - 05:33 PM

Xie
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Guys, the rules are not a joke. I'm adding an FAQ section, to the fourth post, also up sometime today as well.

Frankly, the rules exist to keep the thread to devolving into a shit storm because moderators can't really be expected to moderate this thread 24/7. It's really easy for threads like this to go from informative to ASS in like 30 minutes because two or three people who mean well can get into a shitty circular argument that shits up the thread forevermore. Or, one jackass can just post one incredibly shitty thing and everyone will jump on him for 3 pages, also making the thread completely unreadable ass.

And it's not even your fault per se. Some people are new, a lot of people lack matchup experience at delay 0. It can't be helped.

The formatting rules exist for two reasons:

1) To make you actually think about your post. If you have to fumble around and think about how the hell you're going to put your thoughts into some pre-existing guideline, I would consider that a basic level of cognitive process has occurred. I'm definitely likely to fail at formatting things myself, but I think it's worth having this rule as an anti-stupid. It is way too easy to see something you do disagree with, quote the post, type in "LOL" below it, presto, you have a post that is shitty and no one is any more enlightened for having read it. I'm absolutely willing to forgive people who write long, thoughtful posts and then cant't think of a way to properly format it; okay, sure fine, it's not that easy if you have a lot to say, and the formatting will be harmful to the legibility of your post. But by and large, this prevents shitty posts from being posted without any thought behind it.

2) Makes every post contribute to the thread in some way. By forcing formatting, every post can only have some kind of meaningful question that will be meaningfully answered or an assertion that is actually worth some credit in some regard. Imagine that, an informative thread. Now people new to Dustloop might actually be able to find out why we think some characters are good or bad.

TL;DR - While I understand this is restrictive, in threads like this, less is definitely more. THINK BEFORE YOU POST.

Edited by Xie, 23 January 2012 - 06:35 PM.


#13 23 January 2012 - 06:15 PM

Xie
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Double post. Answering questions and making assertions. :eng101:

Answer: @toanenadiz That is more or less the case. The full assessment is from a combination of talking to Japanese players, playing in different regions, watching an obsessive number of matches, and thinking really hard about stuff. By no means is it absolute, which is why this thread exists!

Answer: @kotokot I have updated the parameters section to answer your question. As a whole, "difficulty to learn" is an extremely subjective topic that can't really be assessed. Everyone learns different and is good at different stuff. Furthermore, everyone can herp derp with a character with varying success, but mastering a character is something we've more or less failed to do in America. For these reasons, a "Learning" parameter does not exist.

Answer: @WolfCrimson It does take into account FRKZ, but I failed to make an asterisk that says it does. FRKZ can be used with varying success depending on a matchup, but regardless of whether it is good or bad, it does not increase his offensive or neutral parameters in a way that really takes it above A, in my opinion. In terms of Offense, he gains the ability to perform long blockstrings with multiple mixups, but he loses the ability to bait various defensive options without guessing, of which a wrong guess returns him to neutral or worse. In Neutral, he gains a lot of speed and mobility, but loses the ability to perform a lot of extremely useful neutral maneuvers (most of the ones that make moving around safe), such as jump barrier guard, dashing then attacking on the first frame, or dashing then barrier guarding on the first frame. Because of this, I feel that FRKZ gives you a lot but also takes away a lot.

It's worth mentioning that FRKZ is what I consider an S Rank reversal option. It is extremely safe the moment it is activated, and can give you a monumental amount of reward if the opponent is not extremely careful with his blockstrings or attacks.

I disagree with the notion brought up by StarGazer regarding Makoto's neutral game based on my own assessment of how strong Makoto's general normals are versus other midrange characters. I understand that her dash acceleration hurts her ability to punish mid-long characters such as Mu or approach strictly long range characters like Lambda, but I feel Makoto does very well versus other mid-range characters, as she can still whiff punish fairly well and 5b is still a fairly good normal that does not extend her vulnerable hitbox much before the active frames. She also has a one chance parry option, which can confound neutral for mid range characters who are close or on the brink of losing. Because of this, she can then force opponents to jump, which is still good for her gameplay as her anti-air and air-to-air game are both fairly effective. Because of this, I would suggest A rank neutral game, on peer or just below with other midrange powerhouses, but weaker than characters who are excellent in neutral.

Edited by Xie, 23 January 2012 - 06:34 PM.


#14 23 January 2012 - 06:37 PM

zeth07
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Question: When you were doing the ratings, did you just start with 1 character and go from there while thinking about the other characters and/or did you go back through after giving ratings to all the characters and reassess the ratings you have previously given compared to other characters? The reason I want to know is because depending on what rating you gave one character it directly relates to how other characters would obviously be rated, so your standards across the board might differ depending on who gets what at the start. Maybe if you viewed the ratings independently with all the characters, you might see it differently compared to say looking at all the ratings for one character then compared to the next. Not saying they should be displayed as such, just when thinking about it.

#15 23 January 2012 - 06:45 PM

Xie
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Answer: @zeth07 The process was kind of an ongoing thing over the last week or so. I'd actually been thinking about making a Tier Thread since before the Matchup thread even existed, so I'd been compiling my thoughts on each character for a fairly extended period of time. I first assigned characters a preliminary rank based on what I knew, then went back and compared all characters relatively, making adjustments based on what I believe was relative strength. I believed this was the best way to compile and represent the data, which is why I did it this way. I actually would like to have a full relative chart at one point, but I'd like to actually fill out all the character parameters first.

The main reason the this began to exist was I would often read the JP BBS while on the train, including all of the trolling that goes on in the JP BBS Tier Thread. I just thought to myself, man, these threads are even shit in Japan, but no one closes them because they HAVE to have them.

#16 23 January 2012 - 06:51 PM

Bohemian Polka
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Question: Xie, mind if I ask why you assessed Rachel's reward assessment at B-? The reason I ask is because her average damage is actually pretty high in most situations unless she gets a 2C or j.A starter. It was toned down from CS2, but only a few combos saw that much of a reduction.

Edited by Bohemian Polka, 23 January 2012 - 06:53 PM.

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

#17 23 January 2012 - 07:11 PM

Eshi
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1. Question: Why do you rank Platinum's offensive viability so highly? I do not understand how Platinum's offense can be rated as anywhere near S Rank, or above characters like Valkenhyn who have very high offensive power.

2. I also second Bohemian's question about Rachel for the same reason. She is limited by resources, but having 2 wind meter or 50 heat are not uncommon enough situations to warrant her being at borderline C tier in damage, and unlike many characters she can commonly achieve similar damage without the corner.

3. I just wanted to bring up the idea that no character is rated below B rank in the DL list, which I completely agree with. Although Makoto and Tsubaki may be the worst characters, Extend Tsubaki is 10x better and more tournament viable than CS Tsubaki, who was aptly located at the bottom of C tier. The difference between their power level and that of Extend's top tier is also much closer.
Makoto is terrible.

#18 23 January 2012 - 07:29 PM

Xie
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Answer: @Polka @Eshi My assessment of Rachel is that her average damage is relatively low in terms of real gameplay versus X damage from Y starter. In my assessment, she mostly deals damage to opponents who are impatient in respecting projectiles, the pumpkin, or the anti-air, rather than going toe to toe with an opponent for big(ger) payoff spacing battles. Some of her common situational spacing confirms require CH or resources, whereas for many characters they do not require either. I guess the main thing to take away from this is, her strongest options are among the weakest in terms of damage.

Answer: @Eshi It's an assessment made based also upon blockstrings and variability. Valkenhayn has very strong mixups, but the best ones cost heat to capitalize (rising j.C) or are fundamentally unsafe (can't block as a wolf). He is generally lacking in blockstrings as a human, as his normals and lack of a dash as a human force him to become a one shot (albeit powerful when it succeeds) character. Platinum's overall offense is very powerful, as the character has numerous varied blockstrings, okizeme setups, resets, overheads, a command throw, and weird random bullshit no one knows about. The main weakness is the relatively low reward from many of these options, despite them all existing.

#19 23 January 2012 - 07:36 PM

pktazn
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Question:I was wondering about Tsubaki's rankings for neutral and defense. Her nerfs aren't too bad (imo) but were the Tsubakis you saw/went against doing anything that helped you come to this conclusion? Her defensive options seem somewhat limited since they're not as reliable compared to other characters but it was still ranked as a B+. Is it because of her 2C? I admit I was only first able to play Extend this past weekend so I have very limited experience with the new Tsubaki and felt that a majority of her changes are subtle so it will probably "click" as I put more time into her but I'm really interested in reading what helped you to rank her as you did. However, I'd like to add that I do mostly agree with how you ranked Tsubaki in her character parameters from the little experience I had with her and videos. She's definitely viable, but can easily be overshadowed to the more higher ranked characters.

Edited by pktazn, 23 January 2012 - 07:46 PM.

You'll always be my favorite tsundere lesbian, pk.

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#20 23 January 2012 - 07:58 PM

destruction_adv
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Attempted Answer: @phtzan: I think she fits in that category. If you look, nothing on the list seems to go below a C, in that case, B+ would only be slightly above average, which I belive Tsubaki could easily be considered in that category.

:BANG:   :BANG:  big  :BANG:


#21 23 January 2012 - 09:20 PM

tataki
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Okay, okay, I took like a 15 minute discussion from him and boiled it down into a two sentences.


Can I have the full version please?
Creator of Guilty Bits and other fighting game stuff
http://www.youtube.c...er/novriltataki

#22 23 January 2012 - 09:21 PM

zeth07
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For those that want to visually see the comparison of characters within each separate category:

Reward Assessment:
S+ = Ragna , Valkenhayn, Tager
S = Hakumen, Arakune, Noel
S- =
A+ = Taokaka, Carl
A = Hazama, Bang, Mu, Relius
A- =
B+ = Platinum, Lambda, Tsubaki, Makoto
B = Litchi, Jin
B- = Rachel


Neutral Viability:
S+ = Valkenhayn, Taokaka
S = Hazama,
S- = Lambda
A+ = Ragna, Hakumen, Arakune, Mu
A = Bang, Rachel, Makoto
A- = Relius, Litchi
B+ = Noel, Platinum, Jin
B = Tsubaki
B- = Carl
C+ =
C = Tager
C- =


Offensive Viability:
S+ = Arakune, Tager
S = Carl
S- = Platinum
A+ = Valkenhayn
A = Bang, Lambda, Rachel
A- = Ragna, Taokaka, Hazama, Relius, Litchi
B+ = Mu
B = Noel, Jin, Tsubaki, Makoto
B- = Hakumen


Defensive Viability:
S+ = Ragna
S = Hakumen
S- =
A+ =
A = Bang, Mu
A- = Noel, Jin
B+ = Valkenhayn, Tsubaki
B = Hazama, Tager, Makoto
B- = Taokaka, Carl, Relius, Platinum, Litchi
C+ = Lambda, Rachel
C = Arakune
C- =


Versatility:
S+ =
S = Litchi
S- =
A+ =
A = Ragna, Taokaka, Hazama, Bang, Platinum
A- =
B+ =
B = Valkenhayn, Hakumen, Mu, Relius, Noel, Lambda, Rachel, Tsubaki, Makoto
B- =
C+ =
C = Arakune, Tager, Carl
C- =
* = No Jin Rating


Complexity:
S+ =
S = Carl, Mu, Rachel
S- =
A+ =
A = Valkenhayn, Taokaka, Bang
A- =
B+ =
B = Arakune, Relius, Platinum, Lambda, Litchi, Tsubaki
B- =
C+ =
C = Ragna, Hakumen, Hazama, Tager, Noel, Makoto
C- =
* = No Jin Rating


Overall:
S+ =
S = Ragna, Valkenhayn, Hakumen
S- = Arakune, Taokaka, Hazama
A+ =
A = Tager, Bang, Carl, Mu
A- = Relius, Noel, Platinum, Lambda
B+ =
B = Rachel, Litchi, Jin, Tsubaki, Makoto
B- =

#23 23 January 2012 - 10:16 PM

Dusk Thanatos
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Question: You ranked Ragna over Rachel in neutral. Why so? This seems really counterintuitive, since Rachel has pumpkin, lobelias, and other tools that would seem to give her a better neutral game.

Question: You classify Ragna as a spacing character as opposed to a rushdown character. I understand his rushdown has problems, as you'll hear from most Ragna players, and he has a good 5b, 5c, and 6a. But what pushes you to classify him as spacing rather than rushdown?

If you're in western VA, hit up this thread.  <//> Twitter


#24 23 January 2012 - 10:45 PM

MashThat5A
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Question: You ranked Ragna over Rachel in neutral. Why so? This seems really counterintuitive, since Rachel has pumpkin, lobelias, and other tools that would seem to give her a better neutral game.

Attempted Answer @Dusk - While Rachel has a lot of tools to deal with the neutral game, all of her best tools require time to set up, and are not immediately available; i.e. Rachel is vulnerable while summoning the pumpkin. Whereas Ragna has all of his best tools immediately available.

:RG:RIP Ragna 2011-2013 :RG:

:TA:RIP Taokaka 2010-2014 :TA:
:KO: @MashThat5A  :KO:


#25 23 January 2012 - 11:10 PM

zeth07
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Attempted Answer @Dusk - While Rachel has a lot of tools to deal with the neutral game, all of her best tools require time to set up, and are not immediately available; i.e. Rachel is vulnerable while summoning the pumpkin. Whereas Ragna has all of his best tools immediately available.


I believe that Rachel's neutral is better than Ragna's based on the fact that she does have all those tools that specifically deal with controlling the screen, whereas Ragna is basically a footsie character. And it's not like her gameplay doesn't allow for her to safely setup most of that stuff anyway, like how often do you actually see Rachel get punished just for trying to summon pumpkin. It's just very hard for me to agree that Ragna's control of neutral is somehow better than Rachel's based on the tools available within the match.

I believe that Litchi's neutral is the same way based on the fact that the stick can control how the opponent has to move around and react while she is free to still do whatever she wants.

There are a lot of ratings that I disagree with when you compare them to other characters, which is why I wanted to lay out the categories separately so it is easier to compare when trying to discuss things. I think some characters are underestimated in certain categories and other characters are overestimated. I could give examples and make long posts explaining my opinion but it would be centered around the viewpoint of a Bang player so I might see things differently, instead I'll just leave it to the people with more experience and knowledge of the game since my opinion isn't much of a factor and it'd be hard to persuade Xie to change ratings when clearly he knows more than me about the game.

#26 23 January 2012 - 11:21 PM

Xie
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Answer: @pktazn My assessment is mostly based on the dual tandem of both A DP and D DP (+followups). They are both flawed as reversals, but an opponent who is aware of your current meter situation will be forced to play slightly more safe in a given offensive situation. It is similar to Jin, who has an fast, amazing reversal (623D), which gives his really weird, slow reversal (623C) effectiveness in defensive situations.

Answer: @tataki Sorry, but a full version does not exist. This is a big conversation we had at a family restaurant the Thursday before I came back, and a couple follow-up twitter messages I sent him to clear certain things up, but alas, a full version does not exist whatsoever.

Answer: @DustThanatos This is an assessment I made based on total effectiveness versus the entire cast. Rachel's neutral game is very strong, but has slight flaws based on resources available and has very apparent flaws in specific matchups (Lambda, Hazama, Relius), compared to a character like Ragna who may not be able to control space as efficiently at certain distances of the screen, but always has the correct tools to conquer any particular neutral matchup with enough patience and is not limited by any particular resource.

Answer: @DustThanatos This is probably more of an issue of nomenclature, rather than actual classfication. I don't feel like the separation of the zoning, spacing, and rush-down archetypes are as far apart in a game like BlazBlue versus a game like Street Fighter, so my choice of the word "Spacing Character" is just what I feel he is best classified at in a top level situation. It may be a bit of a culture gap, because what I consider a "Spacing Character" is just someone who fights mostly via "Tachimawari" which I loosely translate to "Neutral Game". Anyhow, because his normals are so strong (don't forget j.C and j.A!) in this version, I believe it's more his strong spacing game that let's him get in and play a more rushdown oriented style when he finally does get in.

Frankly, whatever I may sum up a character in 10-15 words will never do it complete justice, so there isn't much I can do here except pick the best words I can think of. A point that is very worthy of discussion.


I agree for the most part with Zeth07's assessment on Litchi's neutral game, but despite being able to control how the opponent moves with the staff return, the opponent also gains information on how Litchi can move most effectively as well. I used to think the matchup was impossible for some characters, but in reality because you can pick angles and attacks where Litchi will be forced to either block or get hit, you can actually combat Litchi very effectively. This is the main reason I have rated her Neutral game at A-, but I could see it rising higher depending on a player's ability to fight against the flow they've created for themselves. Shounen is very good at this, but as of right now, I can't tell if it's Litchi's inherant ability or Shounen getting away with things that only Shounen can.

Also, to everyone reading this thread, don't be discouraged from disagreeing with me or anyone if you feel like you have the right stuff to back it up. I sometimes multitask while writing thoughtful things, so I make mistakes or incorrect assessments. Sometimes you might be able to point out something I personally just missed, so we can discuss it and have the thread be a good thread.

Edited by Xie, 23 January 2012 - 11:32 PM.


#27 23 January 2012 - 11:37 PM

CrazyI-nomitsu
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Question: How balance do you think this game is Xie? I'll open this question up to anyone else that wants to answer too.
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#28 23 January 2012 - 11:49 PM

Spud
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I agree for the most part with Zeth07's assessment on Litchi's neutral game, but despite being able to control how the opponent moves with the staff return, the opponent also gains information on how Litchi can move most effectively as well. I used to think the matchup was impossible for some characters, but in reality because you can pick angles and attacks where Litchi will be forced to either block or get hit, you can actually combat Litchi very effectively. This is the main reason I have rated her Neutral game at A-, but I could see it rising higher depending on a player's ability to fight against the flow they've created for themselves. Shounen is very good at this, but as of right now, I can't tell if it's Litchi's inherant ability or Shounen getting away with things that only Shounen can.


Two really quick questions about this:

1) When you say "pick angles where Litchi is forced to block or get hit", do you mean like being able to make Tsubame or Riichi whiff by jumping at the right angles, etc.? Or something else?

2) "Player's ability to fight against the flow they've created for themselves." What do you mean by this?

Thanks for taking the time to do this dude, keep it up.
:?:

#29 24 January 2012 - 12:06 AM

DLM UNDEAD
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I believe that this

Complexity: Another flavorful descriptor, also does not have much meaning in terms of character strength. Describes a character's abilities number of TOTAL options in a given time.

is grammatically incorrect.
Question: what is considered to be an ability? (Because ability is kinda broad to me)
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#30 24 January 2012 - 01:53 AM

Fluck
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I am a scrubby theory-fighter, but let's join in the discussion!

I believe that Bang's neutral viability assessment is false and should be increased to S rank. I feel that he is stronger than Ragna in the neutral game for the following reasons:

1. Although his 5B is not as comparable to Ragna's 5B, and he lacks any moves that give him to cover as much of the screen as Ragna's 5C, dash 5A is an extremely viable option at closer ranges that makes it harder to deal with him in the closer mid-range game. Ragna lacks such an option. Bang's 5B is also still a very good and respectable poke and is harder to jump over, and its extended hitbox is not as weak as Ragna's.

2. He has two air options and his air normals are buffed in Extend. Although Ragna's j.C is extremely strong at far ranges, Bang has similarly strong options because of this extra air mobility, coupled with how good his normals are in their own right. For example, his ability to jump and airdash puts him at higher altitudes which is usually favourable in an air-to-air spacing battle. In addition, while Ragna struggles in neutral against zoners, Bang's mobility means that his match-up against such characters is usually in his favour.

3. Although Bang lacks a go-to anti-air option, he has a variety of ghetto options to reduce his weakness in this area, such as 5B, j.A, and even 2D and TK command grab. Bang's greater tendency to be airborne also reduces the chances of his ground-to-air weakness surfacing. While I accept that it is a real weakness, I do not believe that it is significant enough to drop his viability below S when his strengths are considered as well.

4. Nails. Nails are an option that Ragna does not have. Airdash into single nails can be incredibly effective in punishing the opponent from doing even basic movement options, and Dnails cover a very large amount of space and allows Bang to transition from neutral to offense very effectively. Nails also allow Bang to summon Bumpers, which further improve his movement options.


I made an edit about my opinion on his strength.

Edited by Fluck, 24 January 2012 - 02:44 AM.





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