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Baiken vs Dizzy


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#1 26 January 2012 - 10:11 AM

Star-Demon
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I can't do things in this match.

What do you guys think about it?

EDIT: I wanna make every matchup thread I make myself the same.

**RESERVED - probably obsolete in a few months. Hellmonkey Nerina feel free to edit. :P **

Moving, Normals and Specials:
**RESERVED**

2S: **RESERVED**
Jumping:
J.HS:

Counters:
Sakura: **RESERVED**
Ouren: **RESERVED**
Youshijin: **RESERVED**
Mawarikomi: **RESERVED**

Baku:
P BAKU.
HS. SEAL DAT SHIT.

Getting out:
**RESERVED**

Getting in:
**RESERVED**

On Knockdown:
1. Drop a tatami on her head.
2. **RESERVED**
3. **RESERVED**

Remember:


Problems:

Edited by Star-Demon, 12 April 2012 - 10:59 PM.
Fixing up my Matchup thread


#2 31 January 2012 - 04:30 AM

Star-Demon
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Some observations so far:

Dizzy has really good air to ground normals that fuck my shit up. They are big and depending on when and where you jump to cover space or CH with Air tatami, you will eat an aggressive Dizzy's jumpins and garbage.

Going in on Dizzy with meter is very dangerous. Her normals protect her front very well and any hit turns into Axe-> Hand-> Ice Spike, and it hurts badly. If she feels so compelled, she mashes out emergency super and you eat blowback or burn meter blocking it, or in the case of the Grab super, you eat some damage and feel like an idiot.

Dizzy should not be allowed to summon, but this is difficult as Baiken doesn't have a fireball, and kabari is very slow. If you go in, either garbage is coming or you are going to eat IceSpike or Axe.

Hitting Dizzy with j.D air-to-air may seem like a good idea but Baiken requires some kind of followup after knockdown from j.D.

Air to air with Dizzy using j.s is also not a good idea. She will usually beat it out unless in a very bad position, she's usually avoiding it against Baiken.

2S is very useful, but be careful because DIzzy will make you eat spike/Axe if you don't know what to do next.

So - if anyone has any advice based off these - please post up. :)

Edited by Star-Demon, 31 January 2012 - 04:33 AM.


#3 01 March 2012 - 01:08 PM

Shinjin
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Yet again; I'll keep this post short, as I could go on forever when it comes to matchups against at least half of the cast. There are a lot of details and specifics as always, but I'll focus on the general stuff.

This is a bit of a favorable matchup for Baiken.

This matchup mainly revolves around:

---------------------------------

Poking at midrange with f.S, 2S and Kabari, since her only move that beats them cleanly is the ice spike (236H) and they stuff raw summons

Using really low IAD Tatami and IAD jS to tatami, since it kills her summoning bubbles in the air and raw summons on the ground.

Chasing her down when she is using her air-movement to escape, with jP, iad jS and dashes (and antiair with jP or 6P)

Knowing how to escaping her mix-up game

---------------------------------

The way to go about is first and foremost stay on the ground, mixup up with dash fd-break / dash 2s and kabari. Since these options either close the gap and

The goal is to deny Dizzy from summoning stuff, and thus force her to rely on ice spike-counterpoke (that is why you have to mix up with dash fd-break, so you can punis it on block with either Ouren ir iad jS jP jK -> combo).

Her 2H is also really risky for her, block and punish. Yet again, this is why you also dash up and block. The poking with 2S and kabari is to force her to use these risky moves and punish them. Because when you have forced her into the corner with a knockdown; she should have a difficult time getting in a favorable position again. Just try not to be a idiot and use well thought out pressure and positioning.

The biggest hurdle you wil encounter in this matchup is when she has gotten a knockdown (ex. she hits you with a ice spike) or she succesfully reads your passive play (ex.you are baing ice spike with block, but she does a raw-summon instead) and gets a summon. Generally speaking, killing the fish is a bad idea, but sometimes using 6P to kill it and then jumping or using kabari can be an idea. It (of course) depends on where Dizzy is on the screen and what she is doing. If she is stupid enough to use an air-based okizeme (ex. iad-stuff), just Ouren out of there and get into a favorable position. The real trick is when she starts abusing her retarded throw range, since the only thing you can really do is to either break the throw or 1f jump of there (which a lot of times leads to you blocking a laser or a fish attack, and then you have to block her c.S since she option selects her throw, which then puts you in yet another unfavorable position).

There are also some details regarding how to react to 2p, 2p 2k, 2k 2d into jc etc. but I'll save that for another time...

-------------------

This matchup is focused on Baiken chasing down Dizzy and forcing her to use moves that needs tension in order to be safe (ice spike, 2h frc).

Dizzy has few defensive options, her best often being IB into 1f-jump and running away.

If Dizzy uses air-based okizeme, Baiken can just run away,if dizzy is on the ground and mainly abusing her throw-range, shit is tough for Baiken.

Dizzy has to use risky moves in order to beat Baiken, and if she guesses wrong she can die a quick and horrible death (ex: blocked 2H into BA 5H Kabari leads to huge damage knockdown and tons of tension for Baiken).

Baiken needs to be good at positioning herself well when chasing Dizzy, but is doable with experience.

IF BOTH PLAYERS ARE DECENT ENOUGH!

Cheers.
"Venom, No thinking button pushing is strong" - N-O on Venom vs Jam

#4 13 April 2012 - 03:02 AM

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Some observations so far:

Dizzy has really good air to ground normals that fuck my shit up. They are big and depending on when and where you jump to cover space or CH with Air tatami, you will eat an aggressive Dizzy's jumpins and garbage.

...


Nope, actually Dizzy has very crappy jump normal, they're indeed Big but also extend her hit box to almost as big as her attack hit box, you can time your 6p as anti air to beat all her jump in (j.k, j.2s & j.h) and evade the laser fish at the same time or instant air grab her j.h on reaction.

Baiken j.s indeed kills Dizzy like Shinjin said, her only mid air attack that Baiken have no way to beat is iad back j.s

And just for information, Dizzy j.2s're invul to air grab, if you're using instant air grab to counter her j.h, she will start abusing this.

:DI: - :OS:


#5 14 April 2012 - 02:55 PM

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Instant air grab? Yo dawg, you're gonna have to teach me that one.

#6 16 April 2012 - 02:14 AM

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You just need to time your 9.hs and let the hit box do the rest. you can try practicing by setting Dizzy do a deep jump in. j.h to get the feel of the timing.

:DI: - :OS:


#7 18 April 2012 - 11:29 PM

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You just need to time your 9.hs and let the hit box do the rest. you can try practicing by setting Dizzy do a deep jump in. j.h to get the feel of the timing.


I tried it and landed it a few times, but I don't think I really understand how to do it right.

#8 19 April 2012 - 02:07 AM

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Well the basic of Air Grabbing is to have the opponent slightly a little bit above you, if you're not used with air grab as anti air it does feels awkward at first, but it'll came naturally with experience... or try playing HOS :lol:

:DI: - :OS:


#9 19 April 2012 - 05:53 AM

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Most jumps in Guilty Gear are 3 frames long. There are a few 4 and then a couple more exceptions.

There are two methods to 'instant air throw'. One is to throw back in the air, and one is to throw forward.

To throw back in the air, simply hit 7 (up-back), move your joystick or slide your finger to 4 (back), and immediately press H. Similarly, hit 9, 6H to throw forward.

Chances are if you are at this point, your execution is significantly slower than timing your movement and attacks within 3 frames of each other, so try to do it as quickly as possible. (on a joystick, you can get your input down to a consistent window of 2 frames or in some cases even 1 frame, on a pad this is much more difficult)



Keep in mind Baiken's air throw range is not that large, and that GG favors characters slightly under the other character to win air-throws. Also, Dizzy has j.2S which will beat out your airthrow. Other characters have quick air moves or air moves with big hitboxes that will prevent you from getting close enough. Try to throw using back air throw near the corner (which will throw them forward), to get a wallbounce combo.

Edited by Hellmonkey, 19 April 2012 - 05:59 AM.


#10 20 April 2012 - 02:43 AM

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Nice - I'll try it. I had a feeling that something like 96H worked better.

but how do you read a jump and react in three frames? :O

#11 20 April 2012 - 05:23 AM

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Some observations so far:

Dizzy has really good air to ground normals that fuck my shit up. They are big and depending on when and where you jump to cover space or CH with Air tatami, you will eat an aggressive Dizzy's jumpins and garbage.


Nice - I'll try it. I had a feeling that something like 96H worked better.

but how do you read a jump and react in three frames? :O


Reading a jump would mean trying to air throw without seeing the jump.
Reacting to the jump would mean seeing them jump and then instantly throwing them.

Low air throw is an extremely good general anti-air as long as you're under them in the air.

Edited by Hellmonkey, 20 April 2012 - 05:27 AM.


#12 20 April 2012 - 02:01 PM

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Don't people usually attack as they jump in? If dizzy jumps in, she'll use that big ass air to ground she has, and trying to AA that by 96H sounds like I'm going ot get hit.

Or is that situation not the right one?

Like, if Dizzy (or any character, tbh) tries to reposition themselves through an airdash, that's usually time to do a throw (air or ground). I get thrown a lot by a friend, he says he's looking for me to airdash and is in position to throw on landing. After hearing this I started using more regular and fake jumps and I don't get thrown as much.

PS: I'll edit the OP as new good things get posted. If I find myself wrong or learn something new I'll try to integrate it.

#13 20 April 2012 - 03:12 PM

SIne
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if dizzy is doing iad j.hs you can guard cancel then p counter after instant block, what shijin means though is if they are over you in the air not hitting with a meaty you can simply j.6h or j.4h them...
...

#14 21 April 2012 - 01:14 AM

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Don't people usually attack as they jump in? If dizzy jumps in, she'll use that big ass air to ground she has, and trying to AA that by 96H sounds like I'm going ot get hit.

Or is that situation not the right one?

Like, if Dizzy (or any character, tbh) tries to reposition themselves through an airdash, that's usually time to do a throw (air or ground). I get thrown a lot by a friend, he says he's looking for me to airdash and is in position to throw on landing. After hearing this I started using more regular and fake jumps and I don't get thrown as much.

PS: I'll edit the OP as new good things get posted. If I find myself wrong or learn something new I'll try to integrate it.


If you are standing still and try to jump into your opponent with 96H, you will probably fail. You need to have good movement, using things like FD brake to set up situations that you can run under them as they approach by air and instant airgrab or cross them up.

#15 21 April 2012 - 01:57 AM

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if dizzy is doing iad j.hs you can guard cancel then p counter after instant block, what shijin means though is if they are over you in the air not hitting with a meaty you can simply j.6h or j.4h them...


IB? I never thought of that. Maybe that's why P counter always gets blocked and leaves me open on different characters.

If you are standing still and try to jump into your opponent with 96H, you will probably fail. You need to have good movement, using things like FD brake to set up situations that you can run under them as they approach by air and instant airgrab or cross them up.


Baiken's inertia isn't that great...It'll be tough to move around like I'm Jam, but I'll work on it. I learned FD brake as I was learning the system. I should start using it more again.

#16 21 April 2012 - 02:27 AM

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One good way to deal with air stuff is jumping, and instant blocking directly off of the ground. This lets you fall to the ground and recover right away, allowing you to punish or at least end up with plus frames in some of those tough situations.

The nice thing is, this is easily option selected when you go up for an air hit or throw, just make sure to hold back immediately after jumping every time.

#17 21 April 2012 - 01:46 PM

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Sugoi.

Will play with some of these ideas.

#18 23 April 2012 - 05:58 AM

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I don't really agree with this focus on airthrow-usage in this specific matchup and the situations that you guys are talking about.

Youshijin and 6P are sufficient for beating airdashes jH or whatever. I mean, you have to be pretty good at doing doing fast counters on reaction to the block, but airdashing into a j2S or jH is pretty much always a free hit with youshijin, since they wont be able to land in order to block.

And the other possible angles (e.g. dizzy is coming from a diagonal trijectory, in front of you) are like... 6P or a preemptive air-to-air jP destroys her. If dizzy is jumping in on you (without a summon), you own her for free.

Just keep on chasing her down and fd-break (and react to what she is doing) and remember to catch her with IAD jS/jP in certain positions.



Don't get me wrong, airthrowing is very very very strong in this game. But since Dizzy has her j2S (throwinv) which kind of prevents you from throwing her when she is running away from you (e.g. you have chased her down to the corner and she wants to jump -> airdash out), and since Baiken has more than enough anti-airs that beat her cleanly (e.g. fd-break -> you block an airdash jH -> oh, go from 4 to 12 -> youshijin -> damage, KD and tension -> win) it's not as important as in other matchups.
"Venom, No thinking button pushing is strong" - N-O on Venom vs Jam

#19 23 April 2012 - 06:27 AM

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It's not focusing on Air Grab, but just throwing some info how to take advantage of Dizzy expanded hit box on her j.h ... and Dizzy doing air dash j.h? well i know, her j.h is heavy as fuck, but if it get blocked... she's open for almost everything you throw at her (iirc Baiken H guard cancel will ch her, and if there's corner, you'll get dustloop on her for free).

All Dizzy mid air moves're decent to use with iad, but j.h is exceptionally bad to use, since it only cancel to special, it's very unsafe on block if used together with airdash.

:DI: - :OS:


#20 23 April 2012 - 08:48 AM

Shinjin
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I think the point was focusing on explaining why airthrows are so good in this game, not how they are an important tool to take advantage of Dizzys expanded hit box on her j.H...

And the point I'm trying to make is people should of course be very aware of airthrows and how to use them; but Baiken can handle an airborne DI soooo well that people also be very very aware of all the other options Baiken has.

Also: I'm pretty sure we all agree that straight up airdashing in with only jH is really bad. That's why a more valid example would be airdash j2S or jK. Let's say Dizzy has airdashed back in order to escape from Baikens pressure; then reads that Baiken is going to dash forward (on the ground) to close in on her. Then it might be a valid option doing a airdash j2S (has a great hitbox etc.) straight towards Baiken and then she can gattle it to jH for terrible damage. But if Baiken fd-breaks and blocks it, its a free youshijin (since Dizzy won't be able to land and recover in time, especially if she does a jH afterwards). This example is though one of few instances where I can see Dizzy airdashing in on a grounded Baiken making sense.

BUT the point I am trying to make is that Baiken still has an advantageous position when she is grounded. An airborne Dizzy vs a grounded Baiken is always going to favor Baiken. Not that much because of airthrows, but because of Baiken having so many other options that can straight up beat Dizzy cleanly.

When Dizzy is on the ground however; she has some options that are tricky to deal with. And if Dizzy has a summon out; the points I made above don't really apply. That's why I feel like these are the difficult areas of this matchup.
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#21 23 April 2012 - 09:15 AM

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I meant my old post on the 1st page where this Air grab discussion started, and yes her iad j.2s > j.h isn't really effective on this match up thanks to Baiken Guard cancel, but on other match, her j.h actually heavy enough for not leaving any gap for her to continue with ground block string via this way.

Before i just need to state out, Dizzy mid air normal is pretty crappy and Baiken shouldn't feel intimidated by how big it is... Baiken have too many ways to deal with her Jump in :v:

And yes, i do agree with her ground games is much more difficult to handle, but on neutral Baiken still have the upper hand with iad tatami, the j.s is fine too, but tatami is harder to deal with since it cover very huge space.

:DI: - :OS:


#22 23 April 2012 - 10:20 AM

Shinjin
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Yup, Baiken does indeed have the upper hand on the ground as well. This is why this matchup slightly favors Baiken.

Like you are saying, iad jS and -tatami are super effective against Dizzy as a response to raw summons or tk bubbles. These options together with kabari and 2s/fS forces Dizzy to be careful of her decisions. BA iad jS and -tatami can of course be countered if you just throw them out too carelessly (f.S, 2s, ice spike and crouch). And as for groundpokes such as BA f.S, 2S and kabari: dizzy's most solid option is ice spike (frc in order to be safe). But Baiken still generally has the upper hand.

But that throwrange together with a summon when she has scored a knockdown is such a pain to deal with :V
"Venom, No thinking button pushing is strong" - N-O on Venom vs Jam

#23 23 April 2012 - 10:50 AM

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You're Baiken... stop whining, we Dizzy can't mix you up for free on knock down like the rest of the cast :|

The one sole reason i enjoy playing Baiken / Millia / Chip is their crappy lifebar, often times a single knock down is enough to kill them :lol:

:DI: - :OS:


#24 23 April 2012 - 02:41 PM

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Keep in mind Baiken's air throw range is not that large, and that GG favors characters slightly under the other character to win air-throws. Also, Dizzy has j.2S which will beat out your airthrow. Other characters have quick air moves or air moves with big hitboxes that will prevent you from getting close enough. Try to throw using back air throw near the corner (which will throw them forward), to get a wallbounce combo.

I don't really agree with this focus on airthrow-usage in this specific matchup and the situations that you guys are talking about.

Not every Dizzy player knows how to deal with someone constantly trying to air throw them, so I think it's still worth discussing for every matchup. It's a strong option if for nothing else than how it can demoralize, and can net her some good damage and mixup.

I agree with all of your points about Baiken's antiair options though, thank you for writing it out!

Edited by Hellmonkey, 23 April 2012 - 02:48 PM.


#25 25 April 2012 - 01:30 PM

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You're Baiken... stop whining, we Dizzy can't mix you up for free on knock down like the rest of the cast :|

1. Set a fish
2. Dash in (NOT IN THE AIR. GEEZE!)
3. Abuse retarded throw range and mix up with lows to prevent jump outs. ( Don't forget to option select your throw, if you react on catching someone in the air with c.S and chain it to f.S you're gonna have a blast)
4. Train your reflexes so you can punish every counter (YES, REALLY)
5. Establish fear
6. BA: WAAAAAH

Edited by Nehle, 25 April 2012 - 01:32 PM.


#26 26 April 2012 - 01:16 AM

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1. Set a fish
2. Dash in (NOT IN THE AIR. GEEZE!)
3. Abuse retarded throw range and mix up with lows to prevent jump outs. ( Don't forget to option select your throw, if you react on catching someone in the air with c.S and chain it to f.S you're gonna have a blast)
4. Train your reflexes so you can punish every counter (YES, REALLY)
5. Establish fear
6. BA: WAAAAAH


Psssst ... that's Dizzy forum secret.

:DI: - :OS:


#27 18 May 2012 - 12:25 AM

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to Shinjin

There are also some details regarding how to react to 2p, 2p 2k, 2k 2d into jc etc. but I'll save that for another time...

still waiting=).

jS - god like vs Dizzy
right way - my way

#28 18 May 2012 - 12:53 AM

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jS - god like vs Dizzy


not if she's at your level or above you. This is exactly how I get beaten out in air against her. I find staying above her and grounded is critical.

#29 27 May 2012 - 05:54 PM

Horokei
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Need help. How to kill that Dizzy?

#30 27 May 2012 - 09:42 PM

Star-Demon
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Here. I hope this helps you a little.


Two big point :
1 - Stop getting thrown so much. I know it's dizzy, but you have to avoid her using one of her big strengths by watching how you dash and where you land.
2 - You use the guard cancels too much and she just started making you screw yourself up. Don't lean on them, because people will just start baiting you and expect it.

also - if you have trouble confirming damage in corner (2:54) feel free to use the super off 5H. It's good damage, just no knockdown, and you'll have a decent position.

Just chill out. You can do some things I 'm still working on right now, and that's really good, but you gotta work on being chill or you'll get grabbed and your GCs baited a lot.




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