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Lord Knight's GAMEPLAY RELATED QUESTIONS ONLY thread (EX edition)


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#1 11 March 2012 - 04:19 PM

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#2 11 March 2012 - 05:01 PM

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guess I'll start us off.

What do you think of Tager? Even though he still has a sever lack of mobility, you think that's made up with his new damage and heat gain?
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#3 11 March 2012 - 05:45 PM

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I know being a Ragna player this is gonna sound super biased but everyone feels like Ragna does ridiculous damage, but in CS2 he did about 3.8k off overheads (ending with Hell's Fang) in the corner and got about 50-55 heat and 4k from hitting people crouching with 5B>5C>6C>etc with about the same heat. Now he gets 4k off overheads and 4.5k off 5B on crouching opponents with about 55-60 heat. Now all the sudden he is braindead cause he does an extra 500 damage and gains an extra 5 heat?

I know he got other buffs like 6D causing float on hit and j.D pretty much always lets him do Belial Edge no matter the proration, but most of his buffs just made it easier to combo. For the most part he does the same combo starters as CS2 Ragna, just extra damage. He still cant kill people in 2 combos (unless they were Fatal, then you deserved it.), so I don't see the problem. CS2 Ragna would kill you in 4 combos (1 basic one for corner carry, and the other 3 killed you) and so does CS:EX Ragna.

How do you feel about Ragna in EX?

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#4 11 March 2012 - 06:16 PM

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Now all the sudden he is braindead cause he does an extra 500 damage and gains an extra 5 heat?


he was always braindead, just in a different fashion than in CS1, and slightly different between CS2 and CSEX

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#5 11 March 2012 - 06:42 PM

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I suppose it's just a "Haters gonna hate" situation.

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#6 11 March 2012 - 06:46 PM

toanenadiz
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Tao pressure. Is there anything in specific you should look for when trying to escape it?

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#7 11 March 2012 - 07:10 PM

Airk
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I know being a Ragna player this is gonna sound super biased but everyone feels like Ragna does ridiculous damage, but in CS2 he did about 3.8k off overheads (ending with Hell's Fang) in the corner and got about 50-55 heat and 4k from hitting people crouching with 5B>5C>6C>etc with about the same heat. Now he gets 4k off overheads and 4.5k off 5B on crouching opponents with about 55-60 heat. Now all the sudden he is braindead cause he does an extra 500 damage and gains an extra 5 heat?


Yes. Because damage on the rest of the cast, except, apparently, for Hakumen, has gone DOWN. Compare most other characters' damage in the same sorts of situations. To sum up: Ragna inexplicably got buffs when 90% of the rest of the cast got nerfs.

Thx Mori.


#8 11 March 2012 - 07:43 PM

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Yes. Because damage on the rest of the cast, except, apparently, for Hakumen, has gone DOWN. Compare most other characters' damage in the same sorts of situations. To sum up: Ragna inexplicably got buffs when 90% of the rest of the cast got nerfs.


Hold up. Iirc, a few other characters got better. didn't Bang get new midscreen combos? Tager got better damage and heat gain, Hazama does a bit less damage, but still has heat for days with loops, Arakune is....., Valk is still doing nice damage, Platinum was supposed to be better, Rachel I think got better too or at least is still decent, Tao is pretty good, Lambda I'm not sure about, but she still seems to do decent damage, Carl I'm not sure about either, and Noel does damage without making you feel salty as fuck like CS2.

The main ones that got nerfed were Litchi, Tsubaki, Jin, and Makoto.

Correct me if I'm wrong cause I don't wanna have false info. I know Ragna has higher damage than everyone by far, but everyone didn't get nerfed as hard as people try to make it seem.

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#9 11 March 2012 - 08:50 PM

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1) What changes (if any) to the game itself, whether it'd be system mechanics or whatever, do you think they should do for the next major version of the game to make it better?

2) How do you feel about the pace of the game as a whole? Some people feel the game is too slow and matches take forever by comparison to a lot of games. Do you think they should make changes to "fix" that? Would something as simple as a universal health nerf to the whole cast (-500 or -1000 health) be good enough since it would speed up matches slightly? What changes do you think they should make to fix this "problem", if you think it is a problem at all?

#10 11 March 2012 - 09:01 PM

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2) How do you feel about the pace of the game as a whole? Some people feel the game is too slow and matches take forever by comparison to a lot of games. Do you think they should make changes to "fix" that? Would something as simple as a universal health nerf to the whole cast (-500 or -1000 health) be good enough since it would speed up matches slightly? What changes do you think they should make to fix this "problem", if you think it is a problem at all?


A health nerf wouldn't do anything but unbalance the game. For balance, damage only matters proportional to the lifebar: it's not "does this combo do 5k," it's "does a combo 60%, 40%, or 30% of their health?" Nerfing health just makes the game more random by making everyone die quicker from fewer hits, and balancing the health nerf would mean reducing damages, which just defeats the point of what you wanted to do to begin with.

Ways of speeding up matches that would work better would include making pressure and mixup stronger and harder to escape [what I'd prefer] and just manually upping the game speed.

Edited by Dusk Thanatos, 11 March 2012 - 09:04 PM.

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#11 11 March 2012 - 09:13 PM

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Ways of speeding up matches that would work better would include making pressure and mixup stronger and harder to escape [what I'd prefer] and just manually upping the game speed.


Stronger mixups/pressure would discourage new players and BB isn't exactly the most popular game. Upping the game speed for faster matches? I think making the game faster would also discourage new players as well as throw off people who have been playing for awhile.

Edit: Although I see your point about the mixups and whatnot, I think in a game like this where combos tend to do a lot of damage, having strong pressure/mixups would turn the game into who hits who first and some matchups would probably become really gay.

Edited by Dont_Explain, 11 March 2012 - 09:19 PM.

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#12 11 March 2012 - 09:20 PM

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this may sound stupid but whats ur opinon od the following wake ups with litchi
wake up 4D
wake up itsuu

ive had some success with 4d (for people who try to bait a dp by crouch guarding) and itsuu does work at times but i want to make sure

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#13 11 March 2012 - 09:50 PM

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this may sound stupid but whats ur opinon od the following wake ups with litchi
wake up 4D
wake up itsuu

ive had some success with 4d (for people who try to bait a dp by crouch guarding) and itsuu does work at times but i want to make sure


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EX Ragna's ability to pick up a strong combo is ridiculous. im talking like, 4k off random CH 5/jA on air opponent. His corner carry is much better in this version, and his overall damage goes up because of it(along with already buffed combos). New combo routes really up his midscreen damage (4k off 5b on standing from p2 position <_>) And overall benefit his heat gain. All around, he was buffed quite nicely (jC BUFF IS GODLIKE). When you can RC a DP and gain back the heat in a followup combo <____< As a character who is somewhat based around strong neutral/spacing and can get huge damage off of said gameplan (while also having a pretty good DP/staggerable pressure), the ability to place himself into a neutral situation is generally still in ragna's favor.

Also! (IB) barrier pushback change affects how well characters can rush down. Some characters, like noel are very sad. Ragna however, with large normal and lows/overheads/DEADUSPAIKU that reach quite a dsitance doesnt get hit quite as hard. And with that change, between good defense and just /having/ a DP, he can get out of pressure and shift momentum into his favor, whether it be neutral or Oki from a DP combo.

tl;dr consistent high damage, solid gameplay, strong ragna is strong.

#14 12 March 2012 - 01:57 AM

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Stronger mixups/pressure would discourage new players and BB isn't exactly the most popular game. Upping the game speed for faster matches? I think making the game faster would also discourage new players as well as throw off people who have been playing for awhile.

Edit: Although I see your point about the mixups and whatnot, I think in a game like this where combos tend to do a lot of damage, having strong pressure/mixups would turn the game into who hits who first and some matchups would probably become really gay.


Pressure, mixup, and oki in GG are really strong, but most people think GG is a really good game.

So I don't think it's necessarily the case that people will get turned off by the game if mixup and pressure become better

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#15 12 March 2012 - 02:36 AM

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Pressure, mixup, and oki in GG are really strong, but most people think GG is a really good game.

So I don't think it's necessarily the case that people will get turned off by the game if mixup and pressure become better


Oh yeah too true. In the few videos I have seen in GGAC it did look like some combos did a lot of damage. Idk, I guess since I'm part of the "new generation", playing games like BB then going to GG sounds challenging (Although I accept that challenge).

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#16 12 March 2012 - 08:49 AM

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I would say that one thing that makes Blazblue feel slower paced would be the amount of time combos take. I know a personal friend of mine that has a really big issues with Blazblue because the combos in the game tend to last quite a while. Looking at GG for comparison, combos tend to end much more quickly and therefore returning back to a state that isn't just one person being comboed. Whereas in Blazblue, normal BNBs tend to last a good 10 seconds, whereas in GG they may last only 5-6 seconds. The only game that I can really think off the top of my head that actually has longer combos would be MvC3 cause that game is.... insane in many ways.
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#17 13 March 2012 - 12:32 AM

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I would say that one thing that makes Blazblue feel slower paced would be the amount of time combos take. I know a personal friend of mine that has a really big issues with Blazblue because the combos in the game tend to last quite a while. Looking at GG for comparison, combos tend to end much more quickly and therefore returning back to a state that isn't just one person being comboed. Whereas in Blazblue, normal BNBs tend to last a good 10 seconds, whereas in GG they may last only 5-6 seconds. The only game that I can really think off the top of my head that actually has longer combos would be MvC3 cause that game is.... insane in many ways.


This. Pretty much every complaint I hear about BB's speed is combo length. If they shortened the majority of longer/corner combos while keeping similar damage somehow it would go a long way to making it feel faster. Especially some of the bigger offenders such as Litchi (who also tends to do less damage for her combo time) and Noel. This could stifle combo creativity a bit though but that isn't AS big a deal outside combo videos since you generally have a few go to combos in tournies anyway.

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#18 13 March 2012 - 03:39 AM

Airk
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Hold up. Iirc, a few other characters got better. didn't Bang get new midscreen combos? Tager got better damage and heat gain, Hazama does a bit less damage, but still has heat for days with loops, Arakune is....., Valk is still doing nice damage, Platinum was supposed to be better, Rachel I think got better too or at least is still decent, Tao is pretty good, Lambda I'm not sure about, but she still seems to do decent damage, Carl I'm not sure about either, and Noel does damage without making you feel salty as fuck like CS2.

The main ones that got nerfed were Litchi, Tsubaki, Jin, and Makoto.


I didn't say everyone was nerfed HEAVILY, but it's hard to argue that Noel wasn't nerfed. I've had people tell me (unclear on the validity) that Rachel took a damage hit. Platinum went up and down (better damage off random stuff, generally, though her damage there was terrible before, and less damage off certain magic hits.). Yeah, Tager got better, but he was so bad to begin with that he's still not in Ragna's league, etc.

Correct me if I'm wrong cause I don't wanna have false info. I know Ragna has higher damage than everyone by far, but everyone didn't get nerfed as hard as people try to make it seem.


Again; When most of the cast stays the same or gets nerfed, Ragna getting -buffs- is a big deal. I don't think anyone's going to argue that he's not in the top 3 in this game, and he sure hasn't gotten any harder to play. A whole bunch of characters who were basically in his league in CS2 got no love, but he got damage boosts on just about everything he does, and a nice old hitbox improvement on his j.C to boot, so it shouldn't be too hard to grasp while people who play Lambda/Rachel/Mu or even Tao or Bang look at this and go "Huh. So MY character got X, but Ragna, who was no worse in the previous game, gets tons of stuff? And he's one of the easiest characters in the game to play? How is this fair?" And that's leaving out all the characters who got clobbered with the nerf stick.

Re: Speeding up Blazblue - another way it could be approached would be to reduce the amount of hitstop in the game, which should, overall, reduce the length of time combos take, but at the same time, it'll make hitconfirming and comboing in general tougher, so again, not so newbie friendly. (Note: I've actually heard people complain about the hitstop in BB and say it was better in CT, but honestly, I can't really tell.) Shortening combos could work, but would be, well, a lot of work. I don't really know that there is a way to fix this without fundamentally altering the game. (GG, from what I've seen of it, features shorter combos overall and therefore lower damage. It seems more "oldschool" in that regard.)

Thx Mori.


#19 13 March 2012 - 03:44 AM

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so it shouldn't be too hard to grasp while people who play Lambda/Rachel/Mu or even Tao or Bang look at this and go "Huh. So MY character got X, but Ragna, who was no worse in the previous game, gets tons of stuff? And he's one of the easiest characters in the game to play? How is this fair?"


I don't think that.

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#20 13 March 2012 - 04:32 AM

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I can't be the only one who thinks it's funny that Lord Knight hasn't posted since his initial post right? You guys are getting carried away on tangents, let the man answer the questions that were directed at him.

#21 13 March 2012 - 04:42 AM

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I thought about that myself, but hey at least people are actually participating.

Edited by Dont_Explain, 13 March 2012 - 05:10 AM.
Lol what's English?

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#22 13 March 2012 - 07:03 AM

Lord Knight
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guess I'll start us off.

What do you think of Tager? Even though he still has a sever lack of mobility, you think that's made up with his new damage and heat gain?


I hate grapplers, lol. But he's all right now, the meter gain makes him really scary. Special cancellable 3C is also pretty annoying to deal with. On the other hand, I like that he doesn't destroy primers the way he did in CS2... even though it's not a hard matchup for my characters (or versus zoners in general), he definitely got better.

I know being a Ragna player this is gonna sound super biased but everyone feels like Ragna does ridiculous damage, but in CS2 he did about 3.8k off overheads (ending with Hell's Fang) in the corner and got about 50-55 heat and 4k from hitting people crouching with 5B>5C>6C>etc with about the same heat. Now he gets 4k off overheads and 4.5k off 5B on crouching opponents with about 55-60 heat. Now all the sudden he is braindead cause he does an extra 500 damage and gains an extra 5 heat?

I know he got other buffs like 6D causing float on hit and j.D pretty much always lets him do Belial Edge no matter the proration, but most of his buffs just made it easier to combo. For the most part he does the same combo starters as CS2 Ragna, just extra damage. He still cant kill people in 2 combos (unless they were Fatal, then you deserved it.), so I don't see the problem. CS2 Ragna would kill you in 4 combos (1 basic one for corner carry, and the other 3 killed you) and so does CS:EX Ragna.

How do you feel about Ragna in EX?


To sum it up (and other people in the thread have said this as well), he gets rewarded more than everyone else. I think he would've been a fine character in CS2, but a lot of characters just can't compare to him in similar situations. His meter gain is better, he carries to the corner faster, he does more damage more often. Combine that with him being a relatively simple character that a lot of people use, and there's bound to be a lot of salt flung his way.

Tao pressure. Is there anything in specific you should look for when trying to escape it?


Well as far as gatlings go, if you're going to take a risk to get out, the riskiest time is after a blocked 2B or 5B. You can try jumping out of 214D/2D stuff if they are styling on you too much, but be aware that people do just airthrow sometimes to keep you honest. The safest way out would be to just dump meter on CA, you can do it pretty safely after a blocked 2C. Early on in the string, it's pretty risky.

1) What changes (if any) to the game itself, whether it'd be system mechanics or whatever, do you think they should do for the next major version of the game to make it better?

2) How do you feel about the pace of the game as a whole? Some people feel the game is too slow and matches take forever by comparison to a lot of games. Do you think they should make changes to "fix" that? Would something as simple as a universal health nerf to the whole cast (-500 or -1000 health) be good enough since it would speed up matches slightly? What changes do you think they should make to fix this "problem", if you think it is a problem at all?


First, I don't want BBCS4, I want Blazblue 3. New moves, maybe a new character or two. Add some random shit, maybe more wallbounces or whatever. I wouldn't mind a more imbalanced, faster game.

I like BB's pace, but to me it feels like almost all the new games (MVC3 being the exception) are pretty slow at low and midlevel play. The easy way to fix this is either make characters do more damage, shorten combos, or give characters more damaging options midscreen. Even though I don't really find it to be a problem, I feel like they would want to appeal to the masses. P4U is a pretty good example, even though characters don't do a lot of damage all the time, the combos are relatively short.

this may sound stupid but whats ur opinon od the following wake ups with litchi
wake up 4D
wake up itsuu

ive had some success with 4d (for people who try to bait a dp by crouch guarding) and itsuu does work at times but i want to make sure


Very risky. Use it only when you have the read.

Also guys, it's fine to discuss stuff as long as it pertains to a question (or questions) in this thread~
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#23 13 March 2012 - 11:19 AM

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Again; When most of the cast stays the same or gets nerfed, Ragna getting -buffs- is a big deal. I don't think anyone's going to argue that he's not in the top 3 in this game, and he sure hasn't gotten any harder to play. A whole bunch of characters who were basically in his league in CS2 got no love, but he got damage boosts on just about everything he does, and a nice old hitbox improvement on his j.C to boot, so it shouldn't be too hard to grasp while people who play Lambda/Rachel/Mu or even Tao or Bang look at this and go "Huh. So MY character got X, but Ragna, who was no worse in the previous game, gets tons of stuff? And he's one of the easiest characters in the game to play? How is this fair?" And that's leaving out all the characters who got clobbered with the nerf stick.

Re: Speeding up Blazblue - another way it could be approached would be to reduce the amount of hitstop in the game, which should, overall, reduce the length of time combos take, but at the same time, it'll make hitconfirming and comboing in general tougher, so again, not so newbie friendly. (Note: I've actually heard people complain about the hitstop in BB and say it was better in CT, but honestly, I can't really tell.) Shortening combos could work, but would be, well, a lot of work. I don't really know that there is a way to fix this without fundamentally altering the game. (GG, from what I've seen of it, features shorter combos overall and therefore lower damage. It seems more "oldschool" in that regard.)


On combos, I kind of feel like this is a design problem in BB. The combo system isn't really all that focused. Instead of having a clear goal and setting some basic limits on combos like, say, Melty (3 OTGs/groundbounces/wallslams/etc. per combo, your combo ends after that), it feels like they went "oh, damn, this is broke" after CT but spot-fixed it instead of giving it a major overhaul. Really, the combo system doesn't make any sense. Why can Hazama loop 5C 2C 214B all day and get good damage and meter, while looping shit with most characters just results in the opponent teching out? It's because the balance approach on combos in BB is unfocused. Instead of setting some universal rules and making the characters' combos fall in those (make corner combos revolve around wallbound/spin state/OTG for all characters and then limit wallbounds/spin states/OTGs to X per combo, for example), they just slap repeat prorate on some moves they think are too good to repeat, fix the other prorate values wherever, and call it a day. The end result is a combo system that doesn't feel coherent across the game.

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#24 13 March 2012 - 12:27 PM

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There's also the inherent newbie unfriendliness of the repeat rate system, where no-where in the entire game does it even mention that this mechanic exists, let alone what moves it applies to. I'm okay with the system of doing it, but it'd be nice if we got some visual effect (Big green hitspark as opposed to yellow or something) so a player can tell when they've hit one.

#25 13 March 2012 - 03:48 PM

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There's also the inherent newbie unfriendliness of the repeat rate system, where no-where in the entire game does it even mention that this mechanic exists, let alone what moves it applies to. I'm okay with the system of doing it, but it'd be nice if we got some visual effect (Big green hitspark as opposed to yellow or something) so a player can tell when they've hit one.


That's a really good idea. Edit: Though I wonder how it would work with the fact that different moves repeat prorate different amounts - some prorate things down to like 20% so it's like "Your combo ends now" and some only prorate down to like 80%, which doesn't really make a huge difference.

As for the combo system feeling incoherent, I agree with where you are coming from - that's clearly how the system was designed - but I'm not sure if that's a BAD thing. It results in each character having a more different feel. While I wish they were a little more consistant with "loops=bad" and the like (Mostly just loops=bad, because I hate loops on the basis that they're dull.) I like the fact that character X might be focused on wallbounces in the corner, while another does lots of OTG stuff, and still another just does tremendous air-juggles or something. I feel that adds more diversity and well, character, though obviously it makes balancing harder than just putting in a bunch of rules and saying "Well, you're never allowed to wallbounce more than once, OTG more than twice, and so forth". OTOH, I dunno that they seem to be having that bad a time balancing things, and the things they ARE screwing up don't seem to be that closely tied to the combo "system".

Edited by Airk, 13 March 2012 - 03:58 PM.

Thx Mori.


#26 13 March 2012 - 05:30 PM

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Well, the complaints about the combo system are less a balance question and more about making the game more interesting to get into or watch. Though I'll be honest and say that shorter combos probably won't make anyone who isn't already playing pick it up.

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#27 13 March 2012 - 06:11 PM

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Hey LK. I don't know what steps to take to move on to the next level. Did you notice anything in the 50 or so matches that we played that I should work on? Or is it just an experience thing at this point.

:RG:RIP Ragna 2011-2013 :RG:

:TA:RIP Taokaka 2010-2014 :TA:
:KO: @MashThat5A  :KO:


#28 13 March 2012 - 06:23 PM

Dont_Explain
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Hey LK. I don't know what steps to take to move on to the next level. Did you notice anything in the 50 or so matches that we played that I should work on? Or is it just an experience thing at this point.


*Looks at his signature* You should main Ragna and maybe you'd win more. :v:

sometimes it's hard to differentiate between hakumen being retarded and hakumen players being retarded


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#29 15 March 2012 - 04:20 PM

TD
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hey lk what would you recommend for those (like myself) who want to take a big step and be a top player? l mean besides going to more tournaments cause im already working on that. EDIT didnt realize mt5a posted the exact same thing lol :v: what he said.
Quiet introspection.
If you must speak please be brief, and leave your ego at the door.

#30 15 March 2012 - 11:17 PM

A.X.I.S.
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Really to get better you just gotta follow simple steps:

1. Fight different stronger players.
2. Experiment.
3. Observe how you lost and find ways to not be put in that position.

and repeat.

That's all I did.

AXISISM - A Way Of Life

Axis is adorable until he starts talking and killing games.





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