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[CSE] Makoto vs. Ragna


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#1 19 March 2012 - 10:38 PM

OmniSScythe
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Discuss the Ragna match up here.
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#2 19 March 2012 - 10:38 PM

OmniSScythe
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Mid-screen:

Defense:
Parry is now useless at this range, Ragna or anyone else will either be out of range or recover before anything can be done.

From this point all your normals lose out Ragna's almost cleanly, his 5B can not be punished on whiff so be careful since a DP at that moment is legit.

6A of course is your go-to anti-air, however his j.C can be out of your range to punish without a dash.
Also if 6A allows his j.C's sword normal whiff over it you can be punish asap, always make sure you're gonna hit Ragna or it's better to block.

Offense:

You really don't want to be here for long.

Your go-to attacks are 6C which is good for a preemptive strike against his normals, can be made semi-safe with AV B/C or continue offense with AV and it's follow ups. CH leads to full screen carry or a good corner combo.

5D, best used when aiming for the tip which makes the chance of being punish much lower, on fatal can be followed up from anywhere. With meter you can time it so that RC into 5B stuff any attempt to punish and leads to CH if hit confirmed.

5B, not much to say outside of use with care since being a little bit off is more then enough for Ragna to punish.

Close-range:

Defense:
On defense it's good to know the options (the good ones) he can have during any move, for an example.

Ragna's 2B:

2B > 6B(overhead)
2B > 5C
2B > 2C(can fatal and is safe)
2B > 3C (another low)
2B > 214B (overhead) 214D(second part, is very common to see a rapid off this)
2B > 5B
2B > 2D (and another low)
2B > 6D (just hit him)


Offense:

On offense this is where you want to be at all times, avoid doing her BnB as a block string (2A>5B>5CC) 5CC is the universal language of "Inferno divider me". Instead, end your blockstring short like if you want an overhead do something like "2B > 6A > 6B" "2A xN > 6B" "j.CC > 6B" or heck just run up and 6B, it's really fast when it isn't being way to obvious. AV seems gimmicky on paper but it's actually legit, it's easier to use when your not using the same blockstring religiously. When you do find yourself using 5CC try staggering it and using AV B Barrier (214B > j.A > barrier) to avoid and punish any ID especially when it's IB'd.

A blocked 2A can go into 5A which is good for setting up TRM.

Edited by OmniSScythe, 19 March 2012 - 10:48 PM.

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#3 19 March 2012 - 11:09 PM

kotokot
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Ragnas 2B have gap after it on ib except 2B>5B, mash dp if he does anything. Try to dash barrier/hit on reaction in any possible gaps ie after 2B, 5C, 2C. You must be close or you're dead. Remember about 5C CH combo, you will need it to do before 6B, 6D and dead spikes.
if ragna have 50 heat wait for dp rc in your blockstring or hades rc and iad dp when he attacks.
mostly this matchup about footsies and dp, in both ragna is much better.

#4 23 March 2012 - 05:29 AM

LuminAbyss
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I do IAD DP sometimes just because

I wouldn't advice mashing out of 2B > 2C even on IB, as that only will give you one frame to DP correctly, and if you mess up, hell Fatal counter 6k combo.

As far as gaps in Ragna's pressure go, IB creates a good amount of them, but 2C > 6C and 2C > 2D are both easy to DP Ragna out of normally. 2C in general isn't as great of a continuing pressure tool for Ragna as it used to be, it's better as an ender for him now. Also watch for strings into Deadspike or 6D, those are also very DPable, since they're so slow to start up. Don't let him get predictable with that.

As far as spacing goes, your 3C low profiles 5B, and while it's slow, that can be useful at neutral, and hit him while he's whiffing it. Of course, this can be beaten by 2B, 5C, and 2D, so don't over use it.

Ragna really does beat out Makoto at most every range in this match-up, his normals are really really good, and his damage is better than hers.

FOR THOSE WHO LIKE TO IB RAGNA'S PRESSURE TO MAKE HIM A LITTLE MORE FREE BUT ARE TOO LAZY TO LOOK UP FRAME DATA

Common Block string moves/starters
2A | 7 f | 12 frames of blockstun | 0 (JCable)
5B | 8 f | 16 frames of blockstun | -7
2B | 9 f | 14 frames of blockstun | -3
5C | 13 f | 18 frames of blockstun | -5
6C | 20 f | 18 frames of blockstun | -16 (JCable)
6D | 26 f | 20 frames of blockstun | -14 (goes into j.D, JCable)

Common Block string enders
2C | 12 f | 16 frames of blockstun | +1
6A | 13 f | 16 frames of blockstun | -5 (JCable)
3C | 13 f | 18 frames of blockstun | -11 (JCable)
2D | 18 f | 20 frames of blockstun | -4
Deadspike | 28 f | 18 frames of blockstun | +3

Since IB only takes away 3 frames of blockstun, he can still make a lot of gapless or really tight strings, even off IB, but I hope this gives you all more of an idea of where to instant block.

Edited by LuminAbyss, 23 March 2012 - 02:11 PM.

[12:11:06 AM] Toasty: i just got out of rock-in-stomach phase
[12:11:13 AM] Toasty: I think I'm in the clear
[12:11:21 AM] Toasty: looks like I'm stuck playing Ragna
[12:12:02 AM] LuminAbyss: the prophecy is fulfilled

#5 23 March 2012 - 01:48 PM

HIGEKING42
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also he does more damage than you and gains more meter than you do. You can still put a ball but you have to be careful where you put it.
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#6 23 March 2012 - 08:36 PM

StarGazer
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I do IAD DP sometimes just because

I wouldn't advice mashing out of 2B > 2C even on IB, as that only will give you one frame to DP correctly, and if you mess up, hell Fatal counter 6k combo.

As far as gaps in Ragna's pressure go, IB creates a good amount of them, but 2C > 6C and 2C > 2D are both easy to DP Ragna out of normally. 2C in general isn't as great of a continuing pressure tool for Ragna as it used to be, it's better as an ender for him now. Also watch for strings into Deadspike or 6D, those are also very DPable, since they're so slow to start up. Don't let him get predictable with that.

As far as spacing goes, your 3C low profiles 5B, and while it's slow, that can be useful at neutral, and hit him while he's whiffing it. Of course, this can be beaten by 2B, 5C, and 2D, so don't over use it.

Ragna really does beat out Makoto at most every range in this match-up, his normals are really really good, and his damage is better than hers.

FOR THOSE WHO LIKE TO IB RAGNA'S PRESSURE TO MAKE HIM A LITTLE MORE FREE BUT ARE TOO LAZY TO LOOK UP FRAME DATA

Common Block string moves/starters
2A | 7 f | 12 frames of blockstun | 0 (JCable)
5B | 8 f | 16 frames of blockstun | -7
2B | 9 f | 14 frames of blockstun | -3
5C | 13 f | 18 frames of blockstun | -5
6C | 20 f | 18 frames of blockstun | -16 (JCable)
6D | 26 f | 20 frames of blockstun | -14 (goes into j.D, JCable)

Common Block string enders
2C | 12 f | 16 frames of blockstun | +1
6A | 13 f | 16 frames of blockstun | -5 (JCable)
3C | 13 f | 18 frames of blockstun | -11 (JCable)
2D | 18 f | 20 frames of blockstun | -4
Deadspike | 28 f | 18 frames of blockstun | +3

Since IB only takes away 3 frames of blockstun, he can still make a lot of gapless or really tight strings, even off IB, but I hope this gives you all more of an idea of where to instant block.


weeew thats a lot of information there thanks.

99% of my matches with Ragna is pure IB'ing... no, IB > DP will lose to like everything except Gauntlet Hades. It will even lose to 6C from a hugging range for some reasons. IB will give Ragna a hard time when he tries to reset to neutral or jump out.

Ragna Beats Makoto in everything in this match up
Spoiler
:yaaay:

I did something stupid against my friend's Ragna and it worked... i will capture it with my Minecraft camera soon

#7 23 March 2012 - 10:46 PM

kotokot
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ib gives you shitloads of heat for corner carry combos and mixups.
2B>2C gives you 6 frames for dp, READ THIS FUCKING SYSTEM DATA LUMIN=)
Ragnas dp beats 214A~D if you don't have perfect timing or ragna does dp too far. DP beats 214A~C~something(or not) on ib in 99% cases)

#8 24 March 2012 - 12:31 AM

LuminAbyss
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2B>2C gives you 6 frames for dp, READ THIS FUCKING SYSTEM DATA LUMIN=)


PFF

No, I'm pretty sure 2B is a level 2 move, meaning it gives 14 frames of blockstun, which would become 11 frames on IB. 2C starts up in 12 frames. That's one frame to DP.
[12:11:06 AM] Toasty: i just got out of rock-in-stomach phase
[12:11:13 AM] Toasty: I think I'm in the clear
[12:11:21 AM] Toasty: looks like I'm stuck playing Ragna
[12:12:02 AM] LuminAbyss: the prophecy is fulfilled

#9 13 June 2012 - 03:12 AM

BlackKaizer
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Just wondering though but what are her option against him when he's waking up? I can stand just outside his range to avoid his but even if I rush in afterwards to pressure theirs a chance his normals could beat mine, or he could DP at that instance, and or grab me even, it feels like im at the greatest disadvantage against ragna when his waking up surprisingly.

#10 13 June 2012 - 03:40 AM

excelence
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Just op between meaty, block and otg him into another knock down, just don't think too much he has all the tool to beat your option, but few of them can be done on reaction (except overhead) and don't sleep when you're blocking his grab.

Some tips ~> 214a~d can beat inferno reversal, takes roll out and fatal ch grab reversal (iirc).

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#11 29 June 2012 - 06:39 AM

Teutonicknight
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Ragna easily gives me the most trouble when I have Makoto. He does more damage, has more reach, gains meter like crazy, and can combo until you're dead. They really beefed this guy up, but he does have patterns. Sadly, there is not a good way to approach him because of the reach his sword gives him, and since he does so much damage, there's not a lot of room to screw up.

Edited by Teutonicknight, 02 October 2012 - 11:15 PM.

:MK: CS1 - good

:MK: CS2 - sweet

:MK: CSEX - nerfed beyond recognition

:MK: CP 1.0 - improved... it can only get better from here, right?

:MK: CP 1.1 - WRONG. ಠ_ಠ


#12 11 May 2013 - 10:48 AM

Dark Ranger88
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I agree that neutral is complete garbage against Ragna...It's like playing a Hakumen that can dash T.T

However, his pressure and mixup is garbage compared to some of the other cast. His overhead kick (he sticks his elbow in the air to telegraph) can really only be done at the beginning of a blockstring. After that he either has to reset, end pressrue, or throw out a Gauntlet Hades (which is a free combo for you).

The only legit moves he can use to reset pressure are Dead Spike and 6D > j.D, anything else can be poked or barrier jumped out of while he dashes towards you. After a Dead Spike in pressure, most Ragnas go for a 2a or 5b depending on how far they are, parry or DP can beat both of these options.

If you decide to setup the orb at full screen, watch for them to either try and jump over you and hit wit a crossup j.B or use the lowest part of j.C's hitbox to hit you in the face.
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#13 07 July 2013 - 09:34 PM

Bibiquadium
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A few things to consider about Gauntless Hades is that you can either 2B it to that it completely whiffs and punish for free but you won't get a CH, you can block the first hit and 6A the second for a CH 6A, you can DP and get nothing in return or waste 50 meter for a small damage boost, you can parry it but let's not go there. Overall the Ragna matchup isn't that dumb if you're not all about pressing buttons all the time, he has advantage over you. You abuse of his poor pressure and whiff punish, be careful thought some if not all the Ragnas will often whiff and mash a DP as you try to punish and it'll get you. You also have to condition them not to mash DP before going for pressure with larger gaps.




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