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[CSE] Hazama Technical Gameplay Discussion


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#1 22 March 2012 - 02:30 AM

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As part of our efforts to better the Hazama forums and Hazama players, we will begin a movement to more actively discuss our character's strengths and weaknesses as it pertains to different situations. This thread is intended to discuss effective frame traps, pressure, oki, oki setups, combos that aren't the TK loop, TRM, and anything else in a more general and overall gameplay sense. Specific vs. character discussion can take place here as well, but if so I ask you take anything relevant and useful information you find and put it in that character's matchup thread. Anything found to be relevant and effective will be added to the CSE Hazama guide so that thread can remain a very easy to read and easy to find the necessary information.

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Pressure

I feel doing 5B 6A is a good frametrap for catching people trying to jump or mash out.

Evidence


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An if someone doesnt care that you are +10, and they still wish to attack... It is due to a lack of respect. ...Therefor he has no reason to block since he has no respect..

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#2 22 March 2012 - 02:34 AM

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Pressure

A great way to keep opponents on their toes is to use 5B to its fullest extent. Being +2 on block means that you can hold 1 to automatically bait a reversal, wait, then continue pressure. It can also be jump canceled, so you can use it with IAD to crossup or to jump barrier a reversal then fall down with a j.a if one doesn't come. You can also do pressure strings like 2A 5B 5B as a frame trap or do 2A 5B then dash and grab, or if you are all up in dat ass you can just wait a second then grab them for a pretty tricky tick throw attempt. It's a very import staple of his pressure.

An if someone doesnt care that you are +10, and they still wish to attack... It is due to a lack of respect. ...Therefor he has no reason to block since he has no respect..

#GuymamforBestMinazuki

#3 22 March 2012 - 05:26 AM

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Pressure

Speaking of jumping, when using jump cancellable normals, jumping back and using j.6D or j.4D is a good way to mix up your opponent, as you have several options from doing so. For example depending on whether you choose to use the D or C follow-up after j.4D, you can cross them up or just get back to the ground immediately to reset your pressure. Also for the D or C follow-ups to j.6D, it either forces them to block overhead or attempt a quick anti-air or DP if they have one. I prefer the C follow-up in the case of j.6D. And don't forget that you can just bait their anti-airs by either waiting to chain in or doing B follow-up and shooting another, adjusted chain at them.

Question: Suppose I land a forward throw midscreen but lack the meter after following-up with 623D. I feel like 5D~x is a good option on wake-up since it doesn't require any adjustment and works regardless of what kind of tech your opponent does, but I want to know what you guys typically do after this. j.6D? IAD? Ground dashing seems like a rather bad option for closing the distance, as it barely puts you within 3C range. Let me hear your thoughts on this.

Edited by MetalMaelstrom, 22 March 2012 - 05:28 AM.


#4 23 March 2012 - 02:02 AM

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Pressure

The importance of the change on 6B, Hazama famous kick, on how it got changed from being something that most people feared due to it's Primer removing AND having a plus on block benefit.

Greetings, I would just like to add something of a discussion on the 6B change of CSE.

Usually, I'm one of the more reckless Hazama that comes up close and stay close due to it's my style of Hazama fighting. I loved using 6B before the CSE change due to it's immense capabilty of removing primers and reseting the pressure, But the change of the 6B attack really lowered the amount of effectivity on said attack, which makes it way more rare due to several other safer options, not to mention more effective. How often is it used against in the more higher competative games? I've barely seen any 6B on the later parts of Hazama videos, from Jourdal or Pktasn ,which utilizes the attack.

The CSE changes
1: Removing guard primer has been removed.
2: Better Comboable if during a counter, OTG as well.
3: Grounds opponent if hit in air.

Question and thoughts: I've been trying to use it within the few games I play with my friends both offline and online, but it feels more and more wasted the more I try and use it. It only works well against counter characters like Bang and Hakumen, and rare occasions of Jin's slower Frost attacks and counter Distortion. But that relies heavily on either luck or knowing what the enemy throws at you at that exact instance.

Is it really that worth to put yourself in such a high risk for a possible counter combo within these parameters that 6B brings?

I loved the tool for what it did as it made defensives foes think twice as it removes Primers, which got replaced with S versions of (S)214d~A, which is safe on block but it's possible to be 5A Countered due to it's very revealing nature.


As for

Pressure

Question: Suppose I land a forward throw midscreen but lack the meter after following-up with 623D. I feel like 5D~x is a good option on wake-up since it doesn't require any adjustment and works regardless of what kind of tech your opponent does, but I want to know what you guys typically do after this. j.6D? IAD? Ground dashing seems like a rather bad option for closing the distance, as it barely puts you within 3C range. Let me hear your thoughts on this.


There's several occasion that can happen if you use 5D
1: S/He rolls towards you and avoids your Ouroborus during the invul frames and counters you with your snake out. Ouch. Requires timing on his part though. Seen it happen a few times but very rare, especially online where timing is skewed.
2: Neutral Tech and takes the hit,but as we know a normal block with that range makes it VERY dangerous for your to zoom in on any path.
3: Rest(That makes you go wtf and possible works for him or not).

A J.6D is the safer choice as it angles your path and makes the Ouroboros move alot safer, not to mention alot harder to roll dodge if timed right for the opponent.

5D also has the doubt of being slower on recovering to neutral stance then J.6D or other variations. It's better to put your random attacks during neutral or Offensive for suprise effects and variations, then one as stale time as a Tech trap.

I would go for 3C as I am more of a reckless close fighting type , which most of the time gets blocked but puts me into distance to begin a pressure play. I think it's more safer with such an entry then any D movements.

Edited by Vordoxen, 23 March 2012 - 02:59 AM.


#5 23 March 2012 - 02:59 AM

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Response to: Vordoxen

6B is still a good mix-up tool and don't forget it. Unless you use 6A just equally as less. This actually goes back to how good 5B is, as Guymam mentioned. You have constant access to decide whether you want to hit them with an overhead or standing low. Honestly, unless your opponent is really scared and heavily focused on turtling, then going for mix-ups (especially safe on block ones) is a better option than focusing on breaking primers. If you're worried about getting counter hit during 6B's start-up, gauge your opponent first. See if they actually respect your pressure and also keep in mind if they have access to a dp or reversal super.

Also, don't forget that 6B is an excellent starter into Houtenjin.

#6 23 March 2012 - 03:14 AM

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Response to: MetalMaelstrom

6B starter to Houtenjin is like the old 6C into Houtenjin from CS2, indeed.

There's several hesitations with the comparrison to 6B and 6A differences. as after a 6A you will most of the time get blocked by the decent players, since we're aiming for the upper part of player population that has the experience to see what is what, and puts you into a 5A territory and goes into a combo. That's why I hesitate to use 6A for most of the time unless I really am aiming for a Combo as I pull it out as a joker card to confuse the player instead of the 6B that I enjoy to overuse.

This puts me into another pressure Question point that I really am confused about, as we know from the godliness that is 5B(Not to mention loving the 5B662A x N combo) that puts you into the safe blockcombo pressure. We still have an endless pressure combo in several occurences, like previous example, but the access of several DP and Distortions makes even those heavily dangerous for most cases. There's no real "safe" combo, as I know for certain due to the nature of the game.

This is going round and round I see so I'll take your words into thought, MetalMaelstrom. Thanks for the input.

#7 23 March 2012 - 06:19 PM

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Response to: Vordoxen

As far as 6A and 6B goes, they are mixup tools. Which means you need to make them fear the fact that you have both of them. Even top level players get hit by 6A, not because they're bad at blocking, but because the Hazama player mixed them up. When you do pressure, you need to make sure you're actually mixing them up by doing throws, command throws, frame traps, crossups, high/lows, baits etc. because if all you do is hit buttons at them and hope they just stop blocking your pressure sucks. Using 6A and 6B during pressure, like say after the +2 5B, even if you don't have meter is a great way to get them to anticipate one thing, then when you have meter you can mix them up by going for the other, or doing the same thing, or doing nothing and seeing if they try to reversal out. 6B being +3 on block also means you get a nice frame advantage on block and hits them if they try to yomi block high, so mixing up between 6A and 6B during pressure is never a bad idea.

An if someone doesnt care that you are +10, and they still wish to attack... It is due to a lack of respect. ...Therefor he has no reason to block since he has no respect..

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#8 23 March 2012 - 06:44 PM

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Response to: Vordoxen

As far as 6A and 6B goes, they are mixup tools. Which means you need to make them fear the fact that you have both of them. Even top level players get hit by 6A, not because they're bad at blocking, but because the Hazama player mixed them up. When you do pressure, you need to make sure you're actually mixing them up by doing throws, command throws, frame traps, crossups, high/lows, baits etc. because if all you do is hit buttons at them and hope they just stop blocking your pressure sucks. Using 6A and 6B during pressure, like say after the +2 5B, even if you don't have meter is a great way to get them to anticipate one thing, then when you have meter you can mix them up by going for the other, or doing the same thing, or doing nothing and seeing if they try to reversal out. 6B being +3 on block also means you get a nice frame advantage on block and hits them if they try to yomi block high, so mixing up between 6A and 6B during pressure is never a bad idea.


I'd like to make a small correction.

For this particular case the fact that 5B is +2 on block does not matter at all.
Since 5B>6A and 5B>6B are both gatling, the +2 doesn't really matter, what matters is 5B's level (= 3 aka 16fr of block stun) and 6A/6B's startup.

What we get:

5B>6B is a 9fr gap frame trap. (can get mashed out from a few characters even w/o IB, the opponent would have to be mashing pretty hard though).
5B>6A is a 6fr gap frame trap. (can get mashed out of this w/o IB as well, unlikely to happen against most characters though).

Can probably delay gatling as well to get slightly larger frame traps (does anyone know for how many frames you can delay a gatling btw?)

Of course you can still do 5B > wait for the end of 5B's block stun > 6A/6B, but you are definitely going to get mashed out of that.

Also, remember that Hazama can combo off a meterless / no CH 6A (and 214D~A) on both Hakumen and Tager with 5A; 6A is definitely "better" in these match ups.

When I say "get mashed out" I'm referring to a situation where the opponent may be mashing something like 2A or 5A, not a move invincible on its startup like Ragna/Litchi/Jin DPs etc.


Safejump setup:


I'd like to point out this setup I've found after watching Mitsurugi doing this in a match against a Ragna player.

Midscreen instead of ending a combo with 214D~A you can end it with 214D~D.
Immediately IAD j.2C / j.B and you will safejump Ragna's / Makoto's DPs / Tao's Hexaedge / etc.

(I used these 3 examples just because they were the characters I tested this setup on, I'm pretty sure that this will safejump every other DP in the game, as well as reversal DDs).

You can even catch forward / backward rolls / quick techs in some situations (which I have yet to understand 100% tbh, I've hit ppl out of backward rolls only an handful of times, never had problems with forward rolls / quick techs.)

The opponent can get out of this by neutral roll + backdash.

You can mix up the setup by doing 214D~D » empty jump 2B / 6A / etc.

Question:

I'd like to know what people do off j214B knockdown midscreen.
I've been pressuring the opponent with just basic stuff since like forever and never researched much into this.
A particular "setup" that I've found is doing 5D~D (not instantly, let the chain go past the opponent) and then j.A, which can act kind of like an "instant overhead", but I don't have anything interesting other than this.

(I wasn't sure on how to format this post tbh; plus I find the "formatting rule" kind of stupid/useless, no offense.)

Edited by _Sey, 23 March 2012 - 07:27 PM.


#9 23 March 2012 - 08:04 PM

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(I wasn't sure on how to format this post tbh; plus I find the "formatting rule" kind of stupid/useless, no offense.)


Response to _Sey
Ah yes. Thanks for the correction _Sey. That's what I meant. I'm just really dumb sometimes.

Also, none taken.

Do it anyways.

Edited by Guymam, 23 March 2012 - 08:06 PM.

An if someone doesnt care that you are +10, and they still wish to attack... It is due to a lack of respect. ...Therefor he has no reason to block since he has no respect..

#GuymamforBestMinazuki

#10 29 March 2012 - 11:30 PM

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Mixup

From an extended J.D whiff just past the opponent's head you can D followup and J.A after to end your momentum then back-airdash when you fly over them for a crossup with J.2C.
Its also ambiguous enough that you can hit them from either side the same way, making it very difficult to see which side to block it.
When getting some respect from the opponent in a match, its usually a good idea to give this a try.
I sometimes do this after knocking them away at midscreen with Jabaki. (236D)

Oki Setup

When doing a combo on them in the corner, you can go into J.Cx5 >66 >2C >214D~B. This leads into a high enough wallbounce that you can have time to move into a setup. (Example: Cross-under then Cross-over into J.2C)
There maybe more ways into this, but I'm not too sure and I find myself using this method the most.

#11 02 April 2012 - 04:37 AM

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Hazama's midscreen oki after 214D~A

Midscreen whenever you end your combo with 3C>214D~A you should ALWAYS 2B the opponent on reaction to them not emergency teching to tell them to get the fuck up unless they want to eat around 2.5K every time you hit them without meter.

This FORCES the opponent to respect you on wake up and actually makes 214D~A oki scary for the opponent because it keeps them next to Hazama and you get meaty pressure every time you hit them.
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#12 02 April 2012 - 02:53 PM

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Response to Dusty: A trouble with that is that when I try and do that, they usually get up and counter me with a simple 5A(Tsubaki for example), and REALLY should not be done against Tagers... NEVER do a 2B against him after 214D~A, Invul rise and invul 360-720 hurts.

I recall that 2B did get buffed but only during a block, not certain on how that goes with a missed one though.

Edited by Vordoxen, 02 April 2012 - 03:01 PM.


#13 02 April 2012 - 04:08 PM

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Response to: Vordoxen: 2B has ten less recovery frames now. If you don't believe me, just hop into a game real quick and just start mashing 2B. Hazama will look like he's break-dancing. This basically means that it's slightly more viable as a poke now because it's much less whiff-punishable.

#14 04 April 2012 - 08:38 PM

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Response to Dusty: A trouble with that is that when I try and do that, they usually get up and counter me with a simple 5A(Tsubaki for example), and REALLY should not be done against Tagers... NEVER do a 2B against him after 214D~A, Invul rise and invul 360-720 hurts.

I recall that 2B did get buffed but only during a block, not certain on how that goes with a missed one though.


wait a sec after 214D~A
dash 2B late (very late) gatling 5B.
you'll pick up most rolls / quick and hit meaty on neutral tech.

fuck tager, 236D "oki" all the way :eng101:

Edited by _Sey, 04 April 2012 - 08:43 PM.


#15 04 April 2012 - 09:02 PM

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No.... you guys are doing it wrong. You should 2B on reaction to them not emergency teching to pick them up, the combo should be blue. This set up is so the opponent HAS to respect you and emergency tech or else they'll eat real damage midscreen and give hazama more meter.
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#16 04 April 2012 - 09:19 PM

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No.... you guys are doing it wrong. You should 2B on reaction to them not emergency teching to pick them up, the combo should be blue. This set up is so the opponent HAS to respect you and emergency tech or else they'll eat real damage midscreen and give hazama more meter.


by doing dash 2B you pick up people not emergency teching as well (and get a blue combo, etc).

If you do 2B on reaction to them not emergency teching, that means you'll more than likely will do dash 5B (or dash <something>) if they do emergency tech, so... I seriously don't get how reacting w/ 2B is the better option.

I don't mean that reacting with 2B is a bad option or something, I just don't get why dash 2B is "doing it wrong".

Edited by _Sey, 04 April 2012 - 09:33 PM.


#17 04 April 2012 - 09:48 PM

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by doing dash 2B you pick up people not emergency teching as well (and get a blue combo, etc).

If you do 2B on reaction to them not emergency teching, that means you'll more than likely will do dash 5B (or dash <something>) if they do emergency tech, so... I seriously don't get how reacting w/ 2B is the better option.

I don't mean that reacting with 2B is a bad option or something, I just don't get why dash 2B is "doing it wrong".




Simple, if you just do dash 2B you can get punished by reversals. If you 2B on reaction it's guaranteed damage and meter. Which is why you shouldn't just dash 2B like you're braindead.
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#18 04 April 2012 - 10:02 PM

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Response to _Sey

Reacting to the whether or not they e.tech is something that people should do instead of autopiloting 662B. It opens up more options.

An if someone doesnt care that you are +10, and they still wish to attack... It is due to a lack of respect. ...Therefor he has no reason to block since he has no respect..

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#19 05 April 2012 - 07:04 AM

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214d~a knockdown --> 2b>4a+b>2c> hiren loop. char specific

214d~a knockdown --> 2b>4a+b>2c> jakou > jayoku > hiren loop for 5k+ off b or higher starter


2b>4a+b vs dp = blocks dps. no dash needed

Edited by kid viper, 05 April 2012 - 07:31 AM.


#20 05 April 2012 - 05:10 PM

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Simple, if you just do dash 2B you can get punished by reversals. If you 2B on reaction it's guaranteed damage and meter. Which is why you shouldn't just dash 2B like you're braindead.


Brain dead pretty much sums me up, lately, I've been trying to react to attack and counters,and I noticed I'm a "A" spammer for getting hits. >< This would explain probably why I'm kinda "braindead" to try and pick up before seeing they tech or not.

Also, as Dusty said, by waiting for them to "tech roll", also puts you into dangerous moments without needing it as it can lead to a DP or merely just missing your 2B.

Obvious miss on my part, Sorry Dusty.

#21 09 April 2012 - 06:48 AM

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OS in corner vs quick rise/roll = 2a>2a+2c> 2a~5c

if they roll/quick rise then they eat 2a > 2c and have enough time to confirm into 5c. emergency tech = 2a all day.

combo if they quick rise = 2a> 2a+2c>2a~5c > 214d~b > 6c > small hiren loop

combo if they roll out of corner = 2a> 2a+2c >2a~5c > 623d

Edited by kid viper, 09 April 2012 - 07:07 AM.


#22 09 May 2012 - 05:19 AM

kid viper
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since none of you guys can come up with anything here's a video demonstrating 2b> 4a+b os

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=GjAqkq5JoPw
huey253: is Ragna considered the best character in Japan? or Hakumen?
[2:15:48 AM] ドラバング: HAZAMA

#23 01 July 2012 - 08:57 AM

_Sey
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Just thought I'd share some setups I've been playing around with lately:

[vs. Tager] Fuzzy Guard
Hazama can setup a fuzzy guard on pretty much most of the cast off a deep j2C > rising j.A/j.2C.
Because of how his air normals work it's useless against 99% of them though.
But! vs Tager you can do deep j2C rising j.A and go into the standing loop.
So it would be something like this:
deep j2C (Tager blocks it) rising [jA jB jCxN dash 5B 5C]xN 3C 236D.
The loop should max out at 2 or 3 reps.

@Corner safe jump
end any loop with 5C 2C 214D~B dash 3C 214D~B or 5C 2C 214D~B dash 5C 2C 214D~B

5C 2C 214D~B dash 3C 214D~B:
wait a few frames (you can hold 6 for a very short time to help with the timing) and then do j2C or jA.
j2C: safe-jumps all DPs and catches forward roll/quick tech (can go into 5C 2C 623D...)
Can buffer dash 5B into it so that you won't get blown up by random late neutral tech 2A/throw mash (the 5B will be meaty).
jA: safe-jumps Bang's Ashura (I guess you could buffer 2B or 2C to catch rolls or something, I haven't tested this too much since I haven't fought many Bangs lately).

5C 2C 214D~B dash 5C 2C 214D~B
walk forward a bit (a lot more than the previous setup) and then do j2C or jA.
j2C: same stuff as above except that on late neutral tech you'll end up in the corner (kinda ambiguous when it happens).
jA: same stuff, won't cross up though.
Note: hit with the dash 5C as close to the ground as possible, otherwise the opponent will tech in the air after 214D~B.

Of course if they start to respect these setups you can mix up it with empty jump 2B / jump iad jB / etc.
I'm pretty sure these setups always work except after something like, 2C (ch) 214D~B (2) combos in the corner, too many 214D~B in a combo will mess up the last two 214D~B.

I don't really have any (well, not ghetto) means of recording myself doing these setups so just play around with them in training mode to understand the timing.
I find the dash 3C setup to be pretty strict as far as the timing goes, so you may want to test the other setup first.

@Midscreen safe jump
I think I've already posted how to safe jump DPs off 214D~A or 214D~ so I won't talk about those.
Instead, watching some JP matches I've found an interesting setup off 236D.
[starter]>236D
jump neutral/forward/backward j6DD j.A whiff [stuff]
[stuff] = dash 2B / dash 6A / command throw / input AD right after j.A to faint empty low etc.


If done right this will safe jump Bang's Ashura (well, it's not really a safe jump, it will just whiff).
It will also safe jump Hakumen's Hotaru as well as make every counter whiff (if done right the j.A will stop Hazama's momentum early enough to make hotaru whiff or to block it, as well as stop Hazama at such a distance that 6D/5D won't get hit by j.A whiff).
Can substitute j.A with air throw.

Just to make it as clear as possible: the safe jump is the j.A whiff.
Something like j.A whiff AD j.B won't safe jump anything.

You can see Roccha doing the setup here (match starts at 3:50):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqiQWEJ65c4&t=3m52s

Edited by _Sey, 21 July 2012 - 07:01 AM.


#24 06 July 2012 - 07:50 AM

kid viper
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The safe jump with throw whiff works in corner as well. it'll beat everything but ashura.

another setup that works is

5c > 2c> 214d~b > jabaki > super jump throw whiff > j.2c

- if opponent tries to dp hazama will be behind them and controls will be flipped. if they roll/want to quick rise then j.2c pops them.
- can mix this up with an air dash back j.2c after throw whiff once the mixup has been respected.

Edited by kid viper, 06 July 2012 - 07:55 AM.

huey253: is Ragna considered the best character in Japan? or Hakumen?
[2:15:48 AM] ドラバング: HAZAMA

#25 16 September 2012 - 03:51 PM

Putin
Putin

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Saw this in a jp match, unfortunately I didn't keep the link:

corner loop > 5C > 2C > 214D~B > dash 5C > 2C > 4D~D > j.2D~D > j.2C

Didn't get the chance to try it in an actual match, but it looks promising. You do j.2C pretty close to the ground, so you can easily swap it with a 2B to mix it up.

Would you guys mind checking it out? I'll also try to test it and post results, but they won't be really accurate since I'm a scrub who plays scrubs.
:HZ: :JI:

MASH j.C FOR A GORILLION DAMAGE





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