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New to fighters, prefer the NSFG style. Questions!


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#1 17 November 2012 - 04:37 AM

zipzo
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Hello! The first part of this post is TLDR; for those who simply would like to skip to my questions then you may divert your eyes past the entire first paragraph below, though if you're a curious reader or have the time, I'd appreciate your eyes for my story :). I'm also not sure if SRK was a better place to post this, or here, but seeing as how I plan/hope to specialize in a NS fighter I thought I'd post here.

I'm Zipzo. I've always been a big time PvPer, but I come from a heavy background of PvPing in MMORPG's (top teams/placements in WoW, GW2, Dragon Nest), but one thing I always found that I preferred above the team aspect of those types of games was dueling. 1v1. I would duel in each of those games obsessively, I just loved being my own team. I ended up buying a Vita because I just thought the system had massive potential (and to be honest I've had it for a bit now and don't regret it in the slightest). My first game? Blazblue. I thought, "what the heck". My only closest background to fighting games was playing competitive Smash Bros Melee and Brawl (Final Destination 5 stock obsessive). I was in looooooove. The sheer thrill of getting some real 1v1 on with even the CPU really tickled that competitive urge in me, and so that pretty much avalanched in to a fighting game frenzy. I got a PS3. I bought BBCSE, SF x Tekken, MvC3, and MK for both PS3 *and* Vita. I got Persona 4 Arena and King of Fighters 13 as well on PS3. Hoping to get SF4AE soon, but I've been so busy trying all these games out and enjoying picking my characters in each one and learning the different mechanics. Of course then I had to start lurking the internet to find out meta-game tactics, see the competitive scene, and feel out the community. I will tell you the last month or so has been an overwhelming wealth of (probably too much) information. I'm trying as hard as I can to keep it all packed in, there's leaks occasionally, but I think I'm doing well. Anyways, obviously I have some super-noob questions that I've come up with to for you newbie-helpers as a FG fresh spawn.

Question time!

1. Which game is my time better alotted to if I'm hoping to excel? I don't care how long it takes. I've got the feeling that Mortal Kombat is a bit on the "eh" side when it comes to competitive fighting gaming, so I've given it the cold shoulder a bit in favor of the others. Blazblue I enjoy purely because it was my first, and coincidentally it seems to be the king of the hill when it comes to the "new school" fighting game genre (or am I wrong?). It seems Persona 4 is attempting to share that limelight but having experience in both I can feel why BB has a bigger community. I have GGXXAC+ as well but I have a hard time enjoying it as much as BB or Persona because it's...old. Haha, I know a fighting game veteran would hate on me for such a silly reason as that but I don't know it just feels washed out compared to BBCSE. Then there's KoF 13...I don't know. It's fighting game overload here, I just don't know what to play more. As far as what I enjoy? I enjoy where the competition is at, but if you're wondering what my personal lean is on, it's BBCSE or Persona 4 Arena. Either way though, I'd play MK if that's where the competition was.

2. I understand the concept of footsies. The art of basically going for quick hits and playing a strong D. Seeking out those openings without letting yourself get punished. I love this play style, because there's less emphasis on remember combos and button combinations (aaagh, this is probably the toughest part of fighting games for me), and more emphasis on you vs the other players mind. Obviously both players need a fundamental understanding of their characters but once that threshold is reached it's a whole new level of skill increase from there. It seems as though SF is the go-to recommendation for this type of preference, but is this type of play style at all valid in BB or Persona on any character within those games? The reason I ask is because I'm curious if the SF approach while playing BB is effective in meta-game. Or alternatively, if a hyper-offensive BB/Persona type play style works in SF. I've been told that KoF almost magically nails what I'm looking for?

3. Is it just me or does Persona feel very mashy? When I am playing with my friends (religiously I might add) it seems that matches will come down to who can lock the other in to their basic auto-combo > special series more often and effectively. Sure we footsie a little, anti-air each other and player a little dodge game occasionally, and even sometimes throw down some supers/specials when we feel like being stylish but overall it feels like auto-combo > special just wins hard if you know how to move/block everything else well. This could all obviously be because we're a bunch of noobs, but when I played online TBH it was the same way. Yeah my enemies tended to be fancier and more know-how-ish with movement, and they would do non-basic combos more often but there was still plenty of auto-combo > special spamming. It's the reason me and my friends will jam up Persona 4 early on, then end the night with hours of BB because we'll just get bored of finding the most creative ways to spam square.

4. I hear SF x Tekken is an inferior game to SF in terms of competitive value. Is it worth it to play this game even though I've read lots of criticism for it (this is besides the fact I find it fun, what I mean is, is it worth it to attempt to excel at it competitively).

5. MvC3 just feels...ridiculous. It's a supers spam show to me, whether online, with friends, or playing solo. I can't really make heads or tails of why this game has the biggest following (doesn't it?). Me and my friends all agree it just feels very "american". Lots of specials spamming, universal combo inputs to make things simple across all characters, and explosions and flashy colors. This game has probably appealed to me the least of all the fighting games I've plunged my head in to. This isn't a question so much as a note I wanted to see if I could validate even though I'm a newbie fighting game player.

6. Do great BB/GG/Persona players really execute those long ridiculous, super-long chain combos with complex, hard to memorize input sequences that you see if you spam buttons in stylish mode? My instinct leads me to believe that players would probably just find a good defensive play style, and poke and utilize their characters strong pressure abilities when they see an opening, but for the most part, keep it very simple as long combos just may not be worth the effort of attempting as you could mess it up, miss a frame and then get punished. I'm just really curious as to what sort of play style I'm aiming to refine. Do I need to start learning how to memorize those 50 chain combos or should I start mastering my footsie game?

7. Is the level 100 COM in training mode for BBCSE a valid/worthy opponent for training on for when I'm without Wifi, or is it lulzy bad and I should just be spamming online matches when I get the chance, or both I suppose. For example I never learned a damn thing about 1v1 in smash bros facing level 9s. For the record the level 100 COM can still rape the poop out of me on occasion, but I'm wondering if the skill that I've mustered to consistently beat the level 100 COM is valid for anything other than...beating a level 100 COM.

8. I'm having an extremely hard time on block timing. Basically I know how to block obviously, but rarely understand how and when to use it. Blocking seems mostly a pre-emptive tactic. I'm assuming this kind of thing comes with learning the characters better, but basically I am not successfully blocking very often even though I'm aware of the ability to, and attempt to do it often in game.

9. What are the most important elements of Blazblue meta-gameplay that I need to focus on mastering? Canceling? Combos? I'm sort of a one-track mind guy, I need to have direction but once I have direction I am unstoppable.

8. Any pieces of advice for new fighting game players that isn't "practice a lot" :P?

Thanks so much for reading my extensive questions...I tend to be both verbose and wordy sometimes...but I super-duper appreciate any and all additions to my thread! Keep on fighting!

Edited by zipzo, 17 November 2012 - 05:01 AM.


#2 17 November 2012 - 05:50 AM

mAc Chaos
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Hey, welcome to the club.

Footsies is definitely a part of every game, although more in some than others. They just take different forms. It's easiest to see it in SF because it's a much more basic game. In BB there's plenty of footsies but it's a little harder to pick out because there's more options and stuff going on. Footsies and combos aren't opposites, though.

See, if you don't have good footsies, it doesn't matter if you have the best combo in the world, you're not going to be able to hit them and take advantage of it. But if you don't have good combos, you won't be able to maximize your footsies advantage. After all, if you can do a good combo then you might only need to hit them 2 or 3 times (counting the combo as just one chunk of damage) as opposed to 5 or 6. That's something that just comes with time though. You struggle with the combos and slowly learn them piece by piece, modifying them like a bunch of legos until you find the best combination that you can do at your level. Of course there are optimal combos to learn too. Sure, you'll mess up combos along the way, everybody does, but eventually it becomes muscle memory and you don't even need to think about it. I can go into training mode and just zone out and think about my day while I do combos without even really paying attention at this point (that's not something to expect for a while though).

I always liked BB the most. Marvel is the most flashy so that's why it gets the most hype. I never really cared about Persona. If you're going to play SFxT just play SF instead.

As for VSing the computer, it might be useful to improve your own execution and stuff like that, but as far as preparing you to VS people it's not that good. Against people you deal with mistakes and mindgames; against the computer you just exploit pre-set patterns, and have to deal with strange things like the computer knowing exactly what button you hit and thus knowing the exact move to do to beat it instantly. But that warps how you play against real people since they don't do that.

For blocking, you want to block low by default. The majority of the moves are low. A few moves from each character are overheads, in which case you want to recognize the lows and highs are try to prepare to block high when you see it coming.

For focusing, you should just pick one character and stick with them. There's too many different styles in BB to just pick a bunch and be able to get good at them all. You'll just end up spreading yourself too thin. Just learning your moves and what they're supposed to do, and execution is a good start.

Oh, and the most important thing is to not get discouraged and to keep at it and have fun. Otherwise you'll end up taking each loss too seriously instead of as the inevitable bumpy road on the path to progress.
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#3 17 November 2012 - 08:29 AM

Osuna
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1. What is worth your time is really really dependent on where you can play. I freaking love blazblue and don't care for P4 nearly as much, but everyone here played P4 instead of BB when P4 dropped so I learned how to beat people up in P4. You need to like the game too, but no matter how much I might like a game if there is no one to play with it is a lot harder to get into.

2. Footsies happen in fighting games, they happen a Lot in SF because frequently getting into a footsie game is the correct or only option. If you like that, then yeah you could go for it, but you do sacrifice other game play experiences for it. I remember a lot of people telling me that SF teaches you the fundamentals of fighting games, but it really only taught me the fundamentals of street fighter and then Guilty gear taught me everything else. I'd even go as far as to say SF had the Least to offer me in terms of fighting game insight compared to any other fighter I have played. I could be wrong, but I'm willing to argue about this.

3. Auto combos do rather pitiful amounts of damage in P4, though they have nice meter gain. If you aren't going for real combos when you can you're putting yourself at a significant disadvantage, but if they're letting a bunch of noobs get their game on then they are fulfilling their purpose. so Yay? I like BB more so I guess it is hard for me to do the responsible thing and defend the good quality of the P4 fighter. Game is legit though.

4. There are a lot of things that have been and continue to be criticized with SFxT, but the bigger issue is that a large portion of their fan base boycotted or stopped playing the game. Many things went sour and whether or not you feel it could be a competitive game it lacks the credibility to really push into the future as a big title.

5. Marvel evolves at higher levels from flashy stupid stuff to flashy smart stuff, (the reverse depending on your definition of stupid), but it is really really flashy so people like watching it, but it really isn't for everyone.

6. Combo difficulty is a real thing, sometimes a combo is just not practical. More often it is just really hard, even more often than that it just Looks hard. Memorizing things is easier the more ways you can remember it. For a combo you have visual, audible, and physical cues to remind you how it goes so it usually isn't that tough so long as you actually Do the combo enough. Human execution can actually do some pretty crazy things after playing fighting games long enough. I know things that seemed impossible to me when I started GG were done earlier today after coming back to the game from a long hiatus.

7. Level 100 come Can teach you some things that are relevant, but it is way way more likely to teach you things that won't help you or will harm you in the long run.

8. Blocking should be something you default to give the correct circumstances. Specifically blocking low. It is a relatively safe option compared to like...DPing, and sometimes it is the Only option, especially against a strong opponent. Blocking is a pretty big topic with a lot of value that I just can't cover briefly.

9. In BB I think mastering Mix ups is something that is hard to think of when you're new and extremely valuable. Know your mix up potential and how to apply it in block strings and oki against characters with different options. Then learning the same for characters you don't play so that you can deal with it as it shows up. Overheads and throws are rather slow but rewarding in BB so unfamiliarity killing your reaction time can cost you a lot. But there's also plenty of spacing and confirms/combos to learn so don't think that's all there is!

8, which should have been 10. Yes! I advise you to focus energy on small numbers of characters preferably 1 at a time. Best is 1 character in 1 game to start, and find someone else who is better than you with the character (or at least the game), or a group of such people and establish a rapport with them. They can give you advice and answer questions that come up as you try to learn the character.
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#4 18 November 2012 - 08:03 PM

Celerity
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Quite the post you've got there. I'm not the most qualified to answer all questions, but I can speak as someone who took a very long break from fighting games in favor of competitive Quake/DotA and has just recently come back.

1. Play whatever you like. BB honestly has one of the smallest communities, but the community is fairly diehard, so if you can find 2-4 people near you who play, you're golden. P4A and of course the Capcom games have larger playerbases. It's up to you whether this is an important factor. I heavily recommend not playing KoF as a beginner, since I believe it's not a great teacher of fundamentals that transfer to other games, and it's very execution-heavy, and the people who have played for a long time will body you forever. I don't think anyone plays MK, anywhere.

2. Mac talked about footsies better than I can. Every game has footsies. If you like a more defensive and basic playstyle, then yes, SF is probably the best place to start. There isn't a lot of memorization and most options are fairly intuitive. Just don't concern yourself with stuff like safe jumps and unblockables at the start.

3. Not really; a lot of your opinions are tainted by simply not understanding the games, and playing with bad players. If you want good examples of what games should feel like, watch high level videos.

4. By the time you get good enough to play anything competitively, there are going to be a ton of new games out already, so I would suggest not worrying about that. The learning curve on fighting games is significantly higher than PC games, especially something like WoW. However, the skills you learn from each game will transfer, so you don't need to worry about "wasting time" playing one game or another.

5. MvC3 is ridiculous. The reason it's popular, though, is because it's a very raw, pure, condensed version of what fighting games are all about. There's nothing fancy and anyone can beat anyone else on any given day, it's just you and your reflexes. It's kind of like a duel at high noon versus a composed game of chess.

6. Yes, they execute them. BB is the only game that I believe has truly ridiculous combos, though. I dunno, you get used to it when you practice often enough.

7. Meh. Every AI has tendencies which can be exploited and won't apply to your real matches. I think it's actually fine to practice against, especially if you're just practicing your blocking or hitconfirms, but you need to try not to take advantage of the AI or you'll develop bad habits.

8. Heh. Blocking is what you should be doing almost all of the time. Attacking is what you do when you think it's wrong to block, not the other way around. Get that mashing mentality out of your head! :arg:

9. I'm no expert on BB, but you certainly should master movement and blocking foremost for any game. And of course, stick with a character and understand their options so you can call on them at any time.

8 (again?). Yeah, find people you enjoy playing with who are better than you, or actively willing to learn. Beating up on your friends and computers isn't going to get you anywhere. Even if all you've got is 4 people, set up a twice-weekly tournament to see who's the best. When you beat someone, tell him how you beat him. DISCUSS EVERYTHING so that you all level up.

You'll know you're doing the 5C right if it looks fucking awesome.

:RA: :IZ:

#5 26 November 2012 - 01:57 AM

zipzo
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Very helpful everyone! Thanks a ton! Will take all of it to heart!

Been playing P4A a bit lately and had some things to share.

I've been called "auto-combo fag" on at least 3 different occasions by different PSN names after whom I beat. I am playing Labrys and while I do admit that I am pulling off that basic combo numerous times here and there, I just don't understand why this makes me a "fag"?

Yes. I get it...it probably will not work on super high level players, but I'm not making a habit out of it...to be honest if someone is so easily beaten by it, it's easier on my fingers going in to the next match, as my hands still sit pretty tense on the controls given that I haven't mastered all of the combos or movements to muscle memory.

My opinion on the matter is that if you are defeated by such "nooby" tactics the one who needs practice is yourself...as far as I can tell if it's in the game, it's fair.

Is this something that is really so looked down upon? Why am I a "fag" for not having to play creatively to beat someone? I have indeed come up against players where simply going for auto-combo was not an option, and it did indeed force me to open up my mind to out of the park ways to get my pokes in, or get a combo running. Some real footsie fun. Then there are players that just get pummeled without me having to do anything other than pressing square. So why does that make me a fag? I just feel a little bit sour that winning gets me insulted, rather than congratulated in a game that I'm still very new to, and trying very hard to learn.

Edited by zipzo, 26 November 2012 - 01:59 AM.


#6 26 November 2012 - 02:42 AM

Tong
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Very helpful everyone! Thanks a ton! Will take all of it to heart!

Been playing P4A a bit lately and had some things to share.

I've been called "auto-combo fag" on at least 3 different occasions by different PSN names after whom I beat. I am playing Labrys and while I do admit that I am pulling off that basic combo numerous times here and there, I just don't understand why this makes me a "fag"?

Yes. I get it...it probably will not work on super high level players, but I'm not making a habit out of it...to be honest if someone is so easily beaten by it, it's easier on my fingers going in to the next match, as my hands still sit pretty tense on the controls given that I haven't mastered all of the combos or movements to muscle memory.

My opinion on the matter is that if you are defeated by such "nooby" tactics the one who needs practice is yourself...as far as I can tell if it's in the game, it's fair.

Is this something that is really so looked down upon? Why am I a "fag" for not having to play creatively to beat someone? I have indeed come up against players where simply going for auto-combo was not an option, and it did indeed force me to open up my mind to out of the park ways to get my pokes in, or get a combo running. Some real footsie fun. Then there are players that just get pummeled without me having to do anything other than pressing square. So why does that make me a fag? I just feel a little bit sour that winning gets me insulted, rather than congratulated in a game that I'm still very new to, and trying very hard to learn.


Its all about their Ego, they can't deal with someone winning using whatever means necessary inside the game. They will blame 2 things, the game or you... never themselves. To begin with, they should stop getting hit by it amiright?
The Win is yours, and no one has the right to say otherwise, afterall the game only recognizes 1 loser and 1 winner.

Though in the long run, you'll neeed to learn better combos since Auto-combos works only off 5A and we all know that every move is important.

And glad to see you're really interested in getting better! Keep it up bro :)

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#7 26 November 2012 - 03:57 AM

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Pretty much what Tong said - people who criticize you for using 'bad tactics' or whatever when they LOSE not only don't have a leg to stand on from the perspective of being able to tell you anything about your gameplay (Since, you know, they lost and all) but they are pretty much the dictionary definition of 'scrub' - which is to say, someone who constantly finds excuses to explain away their losses, without realizing that, for example, auto combos are actually pretty weak, so if they're calling that out as why they LOST, there's something clearly wrong with their gameplan or gameplay.

Don't take this to heart. If you want, you can respond back with "Well, if you're going to keep getting hit with them, isn't that your fault?" or perhaps "I'm still working on learning better combos, but the autocombo seems to work okay!" and maybe you'll get a less idiotic response after they cool down (more likely for the latter than the former). Or you can troll them. It's not entirely polite, but boy did they bring it upon themselves.

So while there may be people who "look down on" autocombos, those people are either A) Scrubs or B) Not losing to you. ;) The autocombo is a tool. It actually even has a place as a meter gain choice even at relatively higher levels of play. There's nothing wrong with using it, any more than there's anything wrong with anti-airing with 2B. :P

Thx Mori.


#8 26 November 2012 - 04:22 AM

mAc Chaos
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People will complain about literally anything when they lose. That's all.
@mAcChaos


Fighting Mac isn't really fighting Mac, it's fighting yourself.


the only thing people learn from you is despair.


fighting you is like fighting a mirror.
then the mirror kicks me in the dick.





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