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Ky vs. Slayer - 5-5/Even


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#1 26 June 2008 - 08:02 PM

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This matchup is even. Maybe a slight advantage for Slayer though.

Moves that can beat Slayer:
j.K - beats all of Slayer's air normals for free.

air throw/2H/623H - beats Slayer's j.H. 2H must be done early however.

stun dipper - can beat out dandy step

greed sever/5H - beats Slayer's 2H and 2D

5S/5H/6P/2S/2H - beats Mappa


Slayer's moves that require special attention:
2H - comes out really fast, has lower body invincibility, leads to pain on both normal and CH.

j.H - has a really large hitbox and can beat out mistimed 6Ps and FB shine if done early enough. It can also clash with 6P. Causes floor bounce on CH which leads into big damage.

BBU - really fast, goes through stun edges, leads to omgwtfbbq damage. Very unsafe if blocked though. Must be FDed in the air.

6K - overhead, can be used as a feint for mixups. Leads to big damage if connected.

Dandy Step - leads to
Pile Bunker
Cross-wise Heel
Under Pressure
--It's Late (overhead)
Be wary of the dandy step where he ends up behind you.

5P - amazing anti-air. Can beat IAD. j.S.

2S - This move will most likely tag you if you're not careful when trying to cross him up. It's JCable so it can go straight into his dreaded air combos.

2D - Good range and pretty safe on block.

DOT - Comes out really fast and causes wall stick. If it connects as a CH, consider yourself done. If baited, he can consider himself done. A pretty risky move to use but will significantly change the pace of the match if it connects.


Matchup Overview
Slayer is one of the undisputed top 3 characters in AC and for good reasons. As seen above, his moves have good properties and many of them can lead into his monstrously damaging combos which always bring you to the corner and end in a knockdown. Midscreen, he can try crossing you up multiple times with his dash which can lead into some ridiculous 4-way mixup if your reaction time isn't up to par. However, this matchup is still very winnable for the following reasons:

Zoning - this is quite possibly Ky's biggest strength in the matchup. His ability to control space with j.D, FB star mines, and stun edges can give Slayer a hard time from getting in, which is where he wants to be. Slayer can't really do anything to you if he can't get within his own attack range.

Slayer's big hitbox - Slayer's big hitbox is really good for Ky's combos and as a result you can rack up damage pretty well while regaining your meter at the same time the longer you keep your combos rolling.

Air-to-air - Ky's j.K slaughters all of Slayer's air normals for free. Other attacks can too but j.K is the most reliable. If Slayer tries to fight you air-to-air, he is at a severe disadvantage because j.K leads to air combo and knockdown every time he gets beat out.

Pressure - Ky has a much easier time maintaining pressure than Slayer does thanks to his superior pokes and zoning abilities. Slayer under pressure can't really hurt you without taking risks. The fewer chances he has to land a hit, the better. Most of Slayer's blockstrings have a very noticeable rhythm, so get into the habit of IBing his blockstrings.

Be very careful about throwing stun edges when Slayer has meter because he can BBU through them if you're close enough and don't have the meter to FRC (or you miss the frc point). He also has the dreaded DoT which comes out ridiculously fast and causes wall stick. If it connects as a CH, say goodbye to a big portion of your lifebar.

Matchup Summary (pros and cons)
Pros:
-Ky dictates the pace of the match because of his superior pokes and zoning abilities.
-Ky is superior to Slayer in air-to-air combat.
-Ky has an easier time maintaining pressure than Slayer does.
-Ky has a really easy time comboing Slayer.

Cons:
-Slayer does more damage than Ky, and has more ways to lead into his damaging combos.
-Slayer has moves that come out relatively fast and have either invincibility or large hitboxes which lead to pain and suffering if you're not careful.
-If Slayer lands a CH DOT, GGPO.
-Slayer can bait reversals using his dash. Unless it's really obvious what he'll use for meaty attacks, blocking his strings is safer.

#2 26 June 2008 - 08:40 PM

shtkn
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BBU also loses to any low attack, so use lows (2K, 2S, 2D, slide) when you feel he's going to do one. As a crappy anti air, i sometimes on reaction use j.P to deal with him jumping in with his j.H, i think it's less risky than a well timed 6P or a pre-emptive 2H. slayer's 2H and 2D beat or trade with all your ground normals if he's in range, so either stay out of that range or use a greed sever (or block) I don't know if Slayer's BDC can be used to evade stuff on oki or anything, can anyone chimie in here?

#3 26 June 2008 - 09:26 PM

purify
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Good thread. I lose to 6k a lot. Something to add: 5D: on block can be punished with his BBU, however if you space it further out he'll whiff. If he has 50% though lol it's that TIME My advice would be to keep moving midscreen until you can safely pressure him, and avoid risks completely since a couple of punishes will be the round.

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#4 27 June 2008 - 04:04 AM

rtl42
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BBU - really fast, goes through stun edges, leads to omgwtfbbq damage. Very unsafe if blocked though. Must be FDed in the air.

Are you sure it has to be FDed? Sorry I can't verify this right now, but it doesn't sound right.

6K - overhead, can be used as a feint for mixups. Leads to big damage if connected.

6K leads to big damage if Slayer has pushed you into the corner already, or he has at least 25% tension. Otherwise, the "best" he can do is 6K -> 2K-2S-2D (knockdown), in terms of damage.

Dandy Step - leads to
Pile Bunker
Cross-wise Heel
Under Pressure
--It's Late (overhead)
Be wary of the dandy step where he ends up behind you.

Just some extra facts, to quote from the frame data:
- Dandy P (short step) is strike invincible for the first 3 frames
- Dandy K (long step) is strike invincible for the first 6 frames
- Dandy S (cross step) is invincible above the feet from frames 10-17, and has upper body invul from frames 18-21.
- It's Late (from Under Pressure) is throw invincible from frames 1-13.
- It's Late (from Dandy Step) is throw invincible from frames 5-17.
You also forgot to mention FB Pilebunker. The only extra note I'd mention is that it's a "level 6" attack -- in the frame data comments, it says that if blocked standing, FB PB will incur 30 frames of blockstun.

5A - amazing anti-air. Can beat IAD. j.S.

5P, right?

2S - This move will most likely tag you if you're not careful when trying to cross him up. It's JCable so it can go straight into his dreaded air combos.

I made a decent summary of Slayer's anti-air options elsewhere, so I'll cross-post:

for anti-airing, 5P's hitbox is like a little dagger that you can stick into people when they're coming at you diagonally (think, 45 degree angle from the ground).

because of 6P's above-the-knees invul, it's a dodge -> counter anti-air, but because the hitbox is in front of slayer, it's a "low" anti-air. the hitbox is pretty much his shoulder, after the initial crouch in the animation. so, it's more likely to beat out moves coming at a lower angle to the ground, like below 30 degrees. (actually, it'll beat out some ground moves, too, so it's not just an anti-air.)

2S is probably his "best" anti-air, because he lowers his hitbox a bit and sticks out a fairly wide and safe hitbox above himself. however, it doesn't have the kind of invul that 6P does, so you can't rely on 2S as a "last second"/reactionary anti-air, generally. you have to stick it out a bit pre-emptively (or, be attentive to your opponent's patterns), and essentially shield yourself with your leg.

out of the 3, 2S has a more, ah... "surprising" hitbox than the others, because it's wider than it looks. (well, that's my opinion, but if you've seen some combo vids, you'll see 2S hit way farther out than the sprite would suggest.)


back to your post:

2D - Good range and pretty safe on block.

the thing is, 2D has a lot of active frames, and it's a level 5 attack, so it really depends on when you block 2D (during its active frames).
i.e. if you block 2D on the first active frame, then slayer is at disadvantage. but if you block 2D on the last active frame, slayer is at advantage.

Slayer's big hitbox - Slayer's big hitbox is really good for Ky's combos and as a result you can rack up damage pretty well while regaining your meter at the same time the longer you keep your combos rolling.

not only does slayer have a "nice easy" hitbox to work with, but his standing hitbox is actually decently tall (maybe not as tall as eddie or pot), so you can get some funky F-style guard breaks ("american fuzzy guard") on him.

Pressure - Ky has a much easier time maintaining pressure than Slayer does thanks to his superior pokes and zoning abilities. Slayer under pressure can't really hurt you without taking risks. The fewer chances he has to land a hit, the better. Most of Slayer's blockstrings have a very noticeable rhythm, so get into the habit of IBing his blockstrings.

it's hard for slayer to get out, but don't forget he has BDC. it's not as good as it used to be, so he can't use it to cover up the start-up of his specials, but he can still BDC jump to get out of your pressure, so be mindful of that.
also, i would disagree with the last sentence, i think Slayer has a lot of variability in his pressure because his attacks cause so much blockstun. if you assume he's always going to strike, then yes it's not terribly hard to see a rhythm/pattern, but once Slayer starts working a more "basic" strike/throw mix-up pattern on you, you could get into serious trouble.

Be very careful about throwing stun edges when Slayer has meter because he can BBU through them if you're close enough and don't have the meter to FRC (or you miss the frc point). He also has the dreaded DoT which comes out ridiculously fast and causes wall stick. If it connects as a CH, say goodbye to a big portion of your lifebar.

slayer can also forward dash through SE, and he can still BDC mappa through them.

hope that helps~

#5 27 June 2008 - 09:24 AM

shtkn
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yes you need to fd BBU if you're in the air. In this sense, Slayer basically has a dragon punch of sorts... like how in old school sf2 ryu/ken can do a lp dragonpunch early and hit you out of a jump as soon as you start it. So be wary of jumping when in BBU range when slayer has 25% (or be sure to FD). Basically, i just try to stay as far away as i can, and if i end up close to him, do a lot of lows to push him out while lookin out for 2H, or superjump FD, then air dash out or something, just don't stay in a position to get BBU > half life combo-ed.

#6 25 July 2008 - 04:42 PM

Rome
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6K leads to big damage if Slayer has pushed you into the corner already, or he has at least 25% tension. Otherwise, the "best" he can do is 6K -> 2K-2S-2D (knockdown), in terms of damage.


Nah. Slayer can 6k,2k,2h,BBU > combo whether you in the corner or not.

#7 26 July 2008 - 01:22 PM

ky0n01
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yeah, slayer can do a full combo from 6k if distance is not too far. the combo starts like this bbu> iad> jd> j2k> jk> 5p> continue combo ending in a KD
ragequit

#8 29 July 2008 - 12:42 AM

superclack
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Nah. Slayer can 6k,2k,2h,BBU > combo whether you in the corner or not.


BBU is the 25% tension that RTL's talking about. He's saying 6k can only do good, tensionless damage in the corner.

#9 29 July 2008 - 01:11 AM

Rome
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Wow, I didn't even see that....

#10 29 July 2008 - 01:30 AM

ky0n01
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Nice stuff there RTL, as expected of the slayeer.
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#11 26 November 2010 - 05:18 PM

rannos
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i know this is a little necro but meh.

you should also watch out for 6p because it goes through greed sever and all of your projectiles if timed right making slayer harder to zone. personally the match feels like a 5.5 -4.5 slayer's favor because his damage is so much better but it's not that bad of a match up. however i'm not a very good ky player it could just be i am being out played by the slayer i normally play against.:psyduck:




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