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Magaki

[CSE-CP] *Debate* Valkenhayn's Okizeme

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A while ago, I talked with Kiba about some interesting things I found in training mode with Valk. Kiba then had the idea to start a discussion about it in order to add an okizeme section in the Valkenhayn guide he wrote. Idea that I like a lot.

The goal of this thread is to decide what should be added and/or removed to make it as complete and clear as possible for the guide. Obviously, most of it is based on CSEX however it seems that it's roughly the same thing for CP (Except for w5C who seems quite interesting as a meaty).

Please do not hesitate sharing your opinion especially about:

-Removing a part of it.

-Adding new things you know/found. (Your name will obviously be added in the specific part you added.)

-Don't understand a part because it's not clear.

-Changing the way it's written. (Need help on that one to be honest.)

_________________________________________________________________________________________

Okizeme

Even though Valkenhayn doesn't possess specials like Relius' 236D or Lambda's 236D, his amazing corner carry and powerful normals give him one of the most rewarding okizeme through the use of meaty attacks.

-------------------Human form-------------------[b/]

The best meaty in Valkenhayn's human arsenal is 6B. 100 P1 and its ability to fatal counter makes it one of the most rewarding attack in the game. The fact that it hits twice also makes it great to catch tech rolls and makes it safer in case the opponent tech later making only the first hit whiff. On block, it is +8 which allows to reset pressure right away or wolf cancel for a safe mixup.

Sadly, 6B is slow. Its 22 startup frames makes it a move that should be used only in very particular situations where it is not a problem by itself hence why it should only be used as a meaty, combo filler or in blockstrings.

However, 6B ISN'T necessarily the most optimal meaty and abusing this move everytime you get a knockdown might result in YOU getting punished instead. we will explain why later.

In order for a meaty to be optimal, you must fulfill 3 conditions:

-The meaty must have a gap of 1 to 4 frames between the end of the opponent's tech and the active frame of the attack in order to catch mashers.

-The meaty must allow you to catch tech rolls.

-The meaty must give as much reward as possible.

The first requirement is obviously based on timing and in order to make it as accurate as possible, we will mostly do it based on visual clues and combo enders.

Any meaty that can CH mashers in a specific situation will be called a meaty catcher. Mostly because it sounds funny.

Valkenhayn's most interesting meaty attacks in human combo enders are:

-6B

-2C

-2B>2B

-5D (very slight delay)>w236D (If you don't delay it and do it as fast as possible, the active frames will end a few frames before the invul of emergency tech ends.)

-5A (whiff)>2B (Whiffing 5A is to help getting the right timing) (Suggested by Kiba)

-6C (Situationnal and bad for catching rolls. Can be used anytime a meaty 6B can be done. Interesting meaty for certain matchups.)

6B

Like mentionned above, 6B is your most rewarding meaty. It's quite obvious to see however and the opponent will know he can wake-up DP if you're not careful.

6B is optimal for jB>djB>djC enders and you will get the right timing by doing it as soon as you land. If you did it right, the first hit will whiff but not the second. Thankfully, even if you delay it a bit, the first hit will touch the opponent instead making it still optimal. The first hit will also makes it optimal if you're a bit higher than usual.

It's also +8 on block and wolf cancelable so you can do ANY mixup you want after it. 6B>3C is your best way to deal with DP mashers (They aren't blocking low when performing 623 under blockstun).

6B is also optimal for any situation when the opponent doesn't immediately neutral tech. Use this normal carefully but use it well. The damage you get after a 6B is more than enough to seal a match.

2C

The other 100 P1 normal and also the most rewarding OTG Valkenhayn possess. This is pretty much what you will want to use to pick up late techers. If the opponent block 2C, you can go to 6B afterwards to start pressuring. The opponent however got a small frame between 2C and 6B to DP/Zanshin/Yukikaze. It's strict, but it's a possibility.

2C is optimal for any jC>(falling jC) enders. DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT use 6B here. You WILL get counter hit. If you can do a falling jC, use 2C. That's almost a golden rule. This is why doing 6B everytime you do get a knockdown is a bad choice.

2B>2B

Sometimes, your combos will end in unexpected ways because of certain reasons. 2B(whiff)>2B is here to save the day if it happens. The first 2B will catch tech rolls or OTG and if the opponent neutral tech, the second hit will meaty.

This is the main use but there is another thing that can make this move shine: Quick wake-up. This is something that can be used in order to avoid meaty attacks like 6B. 2B>2B should be used in case the opponent likes to use this kind of tech.

Not a meaty catcher.

Tip: Press really fast 2B>(2C)>2B. If the first 2B touches the opponent, 2C will gatling helping you with the hitconfirm. If the first 2B whiffs, you will get the right timing to link the second 2B.

5D (very slight delay)>w236D

A meaty command grab ? Cool ! Can only be used as a meaty catcher after a jB>djB>djC combo enders and ONLY if the opponent emergency tech. Which is thankfully what happens most of the time.

People hate command grabs because they can't tech it or do anything about it once it happens. This meaty is interesting to learn because it will make them realize that they have to jump on wake-up to avoid it. And jumping got start-up frames where they can't block making your next meaty attacks scores if they decide to jump.

If you're ballsy, you can do 5D>tk wj236D. A bit hard to do but if done right, you can be certain that your opponent will hate Valkenhayn for the rest of his/her life.

Be careful, you don't want to whiff that.

5A (whiff)>2B

Important meaty to learn done by Hima-sama himself. Catches late tech rolls. What makes this meaty useful is the fact that you can decide to use 2B or not in the end. Use it to get a meaty or don't and block to bait a DP/Reversal.

Meaty catcher with jB>djB>djC enders.

6C

Overhead. Situationnal. Obvious. Easy to react to. Doesn't catch tech rolls except if done early against Hakumen, Tager and Bang. Can be used as a meaty catcher everytime you can use 6B. Strict timing though.

Only use this meaty if you want to surprise your opponent OR against certain matchups. Thank god, it's +2 on block so if you want to reset pressure, you should have the right spacing to use 5B.

-------------------Wolf mode-------------------

Only one optimal meaty I found here for wjB>3C>wjB combo enders:

w5A(whiff)>w5B

Simple and safe meaty. If the opponent rolls or tech late, they get punished by w5A and if they don't, w5B will serve as a meaty catcher.

-------------------Shenanigans/Situationnal actions-------------------

After a Konig Flug

Sometimes, you might use Konig Flug in order to end a round but if you don't judge right and your opponent survive, he can roll away whether he is in the corner or midscreen. At this point, any normal you will use or special WON'T catch the tech roll because Valkenhayn is still in the recovery of Konig Flug while the opponent is starting to roll.

THERE IS however a way but you will need 50 meter. After a Konig Flug in the corner, input at the end of the recovery 412364D. This is an option select. If the opponent rolls behind you, it will activate Sturm Wolf and finish them off.

WARNING: If you do it too fast, you will go through the opponent and only the first hit will touch the opponent (dealing exactly 1000 damage.).

6C against Bang

Using 6C against Bang can actually be an option select. The timing is however strict and should only be used if Bang got 50 meter after a jB>djB>djC.

Once Bang wakes up, he can decide to do 6D or Ashura. 6C beats both options.

If Bang uses 6D, he will get fatal countered. If he uses Ashura, because of how fast it is, you should still be in the startup during the superflash allowing you to cancel 6C into 7DC and avoid Ashura to freely punish it. This is really risky so you have to decide carefully what you want to do.

Works against Daifunka and (barely) works with Steel Rain too.

2B against Makoto

Because of Corona Upper's hitbox, it will whiff against a well-spaced 2B. Therefore, using 5A(whiff)>2B and 2B>2B is a reliable and safe option against Makoto. It also beats Particle Flare and Space Counter. You can get the proper spacing by ending your combo with Stuff>(walk backwards)>2B>2C>jB>djB>djC.

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j.B > dj.B > j.C > 5D oki is also really good. I need to emphasise how strong the mixup potential is compared to human mode pressure. In fact, I would strongly recommend people to go wolf all the time if they can after a knockdown. I know this is common knowledge, so most of you will know this, but in CP Valk has more wolf normals to play about with.

I am still surprised I missed out on such detail and I'm definitely gonna integrate this in to the strategy guide, and I'll also post more information on the oki he can get from various combo enders. Does anyone have anything else that they would want to add? After a while I'm going to lock this thread but there isn't anything stopping you guys from discussing this in the general thread.

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j.B > dj.B > j.C > 5D oki is also really good. I need to emphasise how strong the mixup potential is compared to human mode pressure. In fact, I would strongly recommend people to go wolf all the time if they can after a knockdown. I know this is common knowledge, so most of you will know this, but in CP Valk has more wolf normals to play about with.

I agree here. Every good Valk players in CP seems to go after 3C>236B for either wolf mode pressure or 6B. The latter seems to be even better at catching tech rolls but even if that would be the case, it can't be compared to what you can do with wolf mode on wake-up. Here are some things that I saw as oki:

-IAD>wjA

Seems to allow Valk to catch chicken blocking on wake-up. I don't really like it to be honest and I've yet to see it REALLY succeed. Perhaps you can do IAD>wjA>wj236C and you don't get a purple throw ? Only saw Uma no Hone and Zekuso use it so far.

-(Walk backward)>(Walk forward)>w5B

Seems that if you do it that way and the opponent roll, they won't go through Valk while rolling. Seems okay but I don't like it that much. Perhaps this is what you do if you miss the timing ?

-w5C

This is probably the first thing that I definetely need to try once I get my hands on CP. I don't exactly remember the video (Hope Kiba does) but Valk's w5C clashed against Mu's DP on wake-up. Now, I don't really know if it's a legit meaty against DPs or something like that but if they both clash, it means that their active hitboxes collided right ?

However, if you consider that Mu's 623C got 14 startup frames, it means that the meaty was completely mistimed and Mu could have chicken blocked instead giving the large window the Mu player had. We also don't know what would have happened if the Valk player timed it properly. w5C also only got 3 active frames which is the same as w5A. However, whiffing w5A isn't a big deal while the 21 recovery of w5C can be fatal. Anyway, this is something that should definetely be tested.

-wjC

My favourite. Cool attack, nice damage, large hitbox, catch tech rolls, overhead, easy to hitconfirm, swag.

-5A(whiff)>2B

I know, this is something that I wrote above. However, it's regularly used by Zekuso after a 3C combo ender in the corner. The reason why it was worth noting means that the timing after a 3C ender is quite close to the result of jB>djB>djC which is really interesting and makes most stuff written above still viable.

I am still surprised I missed out on such detail and I'm definitely gonna integrate this in to the strategy guide, and I'll also post more information on the oki he can get from various combo enders. Does anyone have anything else that they would want to add? After a while I'm going to lock this thread but there isn't anything stopping you guys from discussing this in the general thread.

To be honest, could you please lock it in 2 weeks or something like that ? The reason why I did the second post is for CP more specifically. The fact that most of our combos will end with 3C or 3C>236B might alter slightly or completely the oki options we had on Extend and the second post was made especially for that: Testing what seems to work and what doesn't anymore.

If after 2 weeks no one else feel like posting here, I will simply write it in the general section like you suggested.

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To be honest, could you please lock it in 2 weeks or something like that?

Sure! NP.

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My deepest apologies for taking so much time but there were a few things that I had to do meanwhile.

Anyway, here is what I found (All the meatys showed are mash safe):

[table=width: 500]

{X>Y>Z}

Combo ender

Text

Most rewarding wolf meaty.

Text

Most rewarding human meaty.

[/table]

Thankfully, {jB>djB>djC} and {6C>3C} seems to give you roughly the same time to oki so the meatys are pretty much the same. Ending with {6C>3C>236B} or with just 3C also bring the same result. However, the meaty attacks must be executed exactly when you land with {jB>djB>djC}.

Meaty attacks for {jB>djB>djC} and {6C>3C}:


    Human meaty:

  • 6B: If done right, the first hit will whiff and the second one will hits the opponent.

  • 2C: If the opponent doesn't emergency tech, 2C will OTG and catch tech rolls at the same time.

  • 5A(whiff)>2B

  • (Slight delay)>6C: For some reason, 6C seems to hit before the opponent neutral tech in CP. If it's properly delayed, you can easily hit on the first frame. Still the slowest and most obvious meaty in your arsenal but that's good to know and much better than in Extend.

    Wolf meaty:

  • 5D>w236C: Grabs on the first frame it seems after {jB>djB>djC}. Have to be slightly delayed with {6C>3C}.

  • (Delay)5D>w5C: Usually, I wouldn't suggest this because the delay is quite big but there is an easy visual cue with {6C>3C}. After the 3C, wait for Valkenhayn to fully stand up then simply press 5D>w5C. Told you it's easy.

  • 5D>jump>wjC: Easiest and most rewarding wolf meaty. It's hard to react to it but definetely possible so be careful.



I did a lot of tests with {wjC>djD>djC} combo enders but so far, they seem to really be too dependent on height to have accurate datas. 6B seems to work quite well because of the active hitbox but I wouldn't recommend anything else. Only way to really have something accurate here would be to test based on the whole combos rather than the combo ender itself.

Meaty attacks for {wj214A} combo ender


    Wolf Meaty:

  • (Slight delay)>jump>wjC: If executed with no delay, it seems that the active frames end 1 or 2 frames before the emergency tech invul end so make sure to delay it a bit or you will be badly punished.

  • w5A (whiff)>w5B: First w5A catches rolls, w5B meaty. If you catch the roll, it will allow for an easy hitconfirm with the w5B already buffered.

  • w5A (whiff)>w5C: You have to understand one thing here. Even though w5B and w5C got a different startup (7 for w5B and 10 for w5C), they have the same amount of startup+active frame (13 total). Considering that you want to hit with the last active frames when it comes to meaty attacks, you will almost always be able to use w5C instead of w5B when it's possible. The problem here is that if you catch the tech roll with w5A, w5C will whiff. There is however a trick. Press w5A(whiff)>(w5B)>w5C as fast as possible. If you did it right, you will get w5A>w5B if you catch the tech roll/OTG or w5A>w5C if it's an emergency tech.

  • If you have in mind other interesting options for CP or simply disagree with what I said, feel free to post.

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Thank you for everything you've done man, I really appreciate it. I have been playing about with the wolf meatys and they've been extremely useful. I just need to use 'em more.

I have not forgotten! I will get this into the strategy guide this week :)

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Glad to hear that someone tested them man. The lack of feedback was quite disheartening to be honest.

Also, please tell me if you find more w5C meatys. That's the one I wanted to focus on the most but I couldn't manage to find any specific or easy one.

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Not going to lie, I've sorta been semi-ignoring this thread. Which is just because every time I get onto CP it's either to grind out my combos/movement or do some netplay.

When things settle down/the honeymoon phase ends I'll definitely be taking a closer look at this thread, as well as doing more experimenting of my own.

Seriously though, I really do appreciate the detailed write-up Magaki.

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-w5C

This is probably the first thing that I definetely need to try once I get my hands on CP. I don't exactly remember the video (Hope Kiba does) but Valk's w5C clashed against Mu's DP on wake-up. Now, I don't really know if it's a legit meaty against DPs or something like that but if they both clash, it means that their active hitboxes collided right ?

However, if you consider that Mu's 623C got 14 startup frames, it means that the meaty was completely mistimed and Mu could have chicken blocked instead giving the large window the Mu player had. We also don't know what would have happened if the Valk player timed it properly. w5C also only got 3 active frames which is the same as w5A. However, whiffing w5A isn't a big deal while the 21 recovery of w5C can be fatal. Anyway, this is something that should definetely be tested.

You know I did not see this earlier and I blame myself for not paying particular attention to it.

The w[5C] meaty is seen here to work against Jin's 623D (I tested it and it works on his 623C too), and here against Mu's DP. It only works if you use w5C from the max range. Using it closer will result in you getting hit.

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NICE !

I just tested against jin's 623D. Seems that you can do w5C as a meaty (you have to adjust it right.) and if it whiffs because of his invul, you can do w5A to get a counter hit before you get hit by the second attack of 623D. The distance required is the same as the one you use to make the opponent unable to roll away.

I'll definetely test it against other characters later.

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I tested with all the characters' DPs. They can all be executed at the distance you usually take in the corner to make the opponent unable to roll away. As a visual cue, it's when Valkenhayn's ribbon touch the feet of the opponent. That's what we will call "w5C range". It can be done either midscreen or in the corner. Easiest to do in a meaty situation but I found some setups that will be written below.

Works on:


  • Rachel: Her 2C.

  • Jin: Jin's 623C wil completely whiff and you can punish it with 5D>h6B. 623D's first hit roughly got the same horizontal hitbox as 623C but the second hit will get you considering you're still in wolf mode. You can do w5C(whiff)>w5A which will hit Jin before the second hit but the timing and spacing is really strict. Best option is w5C(whiff)>7D. Timing is strict but less risky than the previous one and more rewarding.

  • Mu: Her 623C.

  • Platinum: Her [2]8C can be avoided but you can't punish it. Well, you can with w5C>7D>4C>6D>2D>wjA. Yeah, considering all the wolf gauge you will burn, it's not worth it.

  • Azrael: His Growler 214B. ( 「・ω・)「

  • Bullet: Her 623B

  • Tager: All his command grab. GETB and MTW still works.

  • Hakumen: His 2D if you do w5C>4D/7D. You will get caught otherwise.

  • Kagura: His [2]8C

  • Makoto: Her 623C

  • Relius: His 236A. w5C will whiff. You can do w5C(whiff)>w5A CH and follow with a combo.


Hard to deal with:


    Those reversals requires you to be at max range in order to deal with them. It is only possible in the corner to pull it off with a tk214B>6C ender with an N starter (don't use 3C) or with the j8BBC ender (more details in the w5C guide).

  • Tsubaki: Her 623C can be avoided if you hit with the tippity tip of w5C.

  • Ragna: (Found by Kiba) It is possible to avoid Ragna's 623C at max range with Valk's w5C.

Doesn't work on

    [*]Litchi

    I found a setup if you feel the need to do it in a blockstring against opponents who tends to mash DPs a lot during your pressure. Make sure that he/she respect at least a little bit your pressure and won't chicken block because you will give them a free ticket to escape otherwise.

    Against normal block:

    6D>wjA>w5A>w5B>1D>w5C

    Puts you in w5C range.

    Against barrier block:

    6D>wjA>w5B>1D>w5C

    Puts you in a range where you can hit with the tippity tip of w5C.

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Even though I said I would write a section for delayed tech, I'm currently lacking datas to make a suitable one but I will probably write it another day.

Anyway guys, here's one more reason to abuse w5C.

Here is a list of every counter assaults that lose against w5C in w5C range:

w5C vs Counter Assaults

Isn't affected in standard range: Mu, Terumi, Nu, Bang.

Isn't affected if hitting with the tip of w5C: Bullet, Hakumen, Noel, Kagura, Arakune, Carl.

Lose whatever the range is: Relius, Hazama, Azrael, Amane, Tsubaki, Makoto, Jin, Rachel, Valkenhayn, Taokaka, Ragna, Litchi, Tager, Izayoi.

Another thing you have to keep in mind, every CA gets punished obviously by 4D and should score you a counter hit. It's true that a bright light appear when the CA is inputted however some of them are way too fast to react to meaning that this is by no means an easy way to deal with CAs.

Side note for Kiba: Don't add it in the video.

Additionnal specific that will be used later as a reference: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?15846-CP-Valkenhayn-Gameplay-Discussion&p=1565282&viewfull=1#post1565282

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Considering the fact that delayed techs are much more popular and efficient now against CP Valkenhayn compared to CS and the previously known method to deal with it (the falling jC ender) is now far from being as reliable as before. There are 2 ways to counter that strategy:

-Either wait and see how the opponent techs in order to meaty accordingly.

or

-Simply pound him with wolf cancelable normals or specials and wolf cancel once you notice that the opponent techs.

The problem with the latter is that a wise opponent can decide to tech during the startup of one of your move to seriously mess your pace. Because of this reason, I decided to only focus on the first option.

Thankfully, we have an awesome normals with plenty of potential that can properly deal with that situation: w5C.

w5C Okizeme guide.

Requirements:
  • The w5C oki must be done at a certain distance in order to reach its maximum efficiency. See when you hit with the ribbon on Valk's tail during w5C ? That's the "w5C range" and that's where you want to be. The main and most rewarding way to execute it is after a tk214B>6C>3C ender as it allows to gain plenty of wolf gauge and position yourself. The easiest way is with the 8jBBC ender (more details later).
  • You can execute it midscreen too but you won't be able to punish backwards rolls hence why you should only consider it if you notice the opponent emergency teching.
  • While the previous meatys introduced were all about having perfect, convenient and easy links to hit right when the invincibility on the techs end, it is not the case with w5C oki because it's a question of timing. And you will mostly use the time between your combo enders and the w5C to position yourself hence why learning the timing is the most important requirement. Thankfully, there are a few visual cues that will help you tremendously.



Pros:
  • Like you can see here, w5C is a meaty allowing you to avoid almost every meterless reversal in the game. It also completely avoids some Counter Assaults and punish every CAs if you manage to react to them and press 4D once the opponent triggers it.

    2HKK8C3.jpg

  • It's also the most damaging wolf normal and gives you quite a lot of interesting options if the opponent blocks. You can decide to do brjA or 6D>wjA right away for an overhead or perform the wolf loop for a second low which can be useful if your opponent is conditioned to blocking high after w5C. If your opponent respects your pressure, you can try other things like 6D>jD>throw. 6D>4C>236C works quite well too.
  • The range of w5C is quite deceptive and a lot of people simply try to jump out of pressure once you position yourself. Considering that you trained in order to hit as fast as possible, it will most of the time means a free combo for us.
  • w5C oki is mostly based on timing and being in w5C range makes the opponent roll exactly before you if they roll forward making them unable to escape. The same goes with Rachel's tech 6D who ends up exactly before Valkenhayn. Therefore, w5C oki beats any kind of techs in the corner.
  • Based on all the above reasons, it makes w5C oki the safest and most reliable okizeme in Valkenhayn's arsenal.



Cons:
  • Even though its ability to beat most DPs is quite astounding, some reversals using meter like Nu's Calamity Sword or Valkenhayn's Sturm Wolf completely beats w5C. A specific list will be made later.
  • w5C only possess 3 active frames which doesn't make it an easy meaty. Therefore, training in order to do it properly is important because in case it whiffs or gets delayed too much, the opponent can jump out of pressure or worse, punish you.
  • The main reason why hitting on the first frame is important is because your opponent can do a micro dash DP on wake-up if he knows that you have troubles with the timing for w5C.
  • Some backdashes on wake-up can bring back to a neutral situation. However, 2 backdashes can result in w5C getting punished because of its 21 frames recovery: Relius' and Valkenhayn's.

Training:

    Now that you're convinced and willing to learn how to do it properly, it is grand time to train.

    [*]The first step is the most important: Simply bring the training dummy to the corner and press w5C. Once the training dummy techs, use w5C again.

    There is however a way to know whether or not you ended up hitting at the first frames. Did you notice that if you press w5C too soon, a blue wave show up indicating that you ended up hitting during the invincibility frames ? If you hit the opponent right, you will get a red-orange effect indicating that the game consider you were hitting him. The goal is to actually trigger both. Meaning, you hit the opponent right when the invincibility ends with the last active frames. You will be able to see both the blue wave and the red effect showing that the first active frame ended up hitting the invincibility frames but the remaining active frames could hit right when the invincibility ended.

    Might sound quite confusing like that so here is an easy visual cue: While the opponent is emergency teching, press w5C just before they land. After adjusting for a while, you will soon notice what I'm talking about. Ragna's animation is quite obvious while teching so I suggest first trying it out with him as a training dummy.

    Once you understand how to do it properly, simply keep grinding it in order to get the timing right. I usually do it 30 times in a row daily and if I fail once, I start again from scratch. Pretty much like when you do push-ups. You should be fine with 20 in a row though.

    [*]The second step is when we will be starting to be more practical. Do a combo with the tk214B>6C>3C ender and try to position yourself and press w5C once you're in the desired range in order to get the same result as the first step. This is much harder than it looks like however. If you're having trouble, you can simply do tk214B>6C with a N combo starter because it gives much more oki.

    [*]The third step is finally to do it in real matches and this is the hardest step. Most of the time, it will fail because of the timing required that will often result in the opponent chicken blocking and escaping pressure. It should considerably improve with time however. If for some reason you keep failing, you probably didn't train enough with the first or second step.

    w5C oki based on enders:

    w5C oki cannot be done after a wjC>djd>djC>(jC) ender because of the terrible oki that follows. Ending a combo with wj214A doesn't give you that much time either unless the opponent decides to delay tech.

    It is highly suggested to do it either after a tk214B>6C>3C ender or after a 8jBBC.

    8jBBC is a slight variation of the jB>djB>djC ender. The only difference is that instead of jump canceling with 9, you jump cancel with 8. Why you may ask ? The reason is quite simple: pushback. Ending a combo with 8jB>8djB>djC gives you a lot of pushback and you will notice that you will land EXACTLY in w5C range.

    That's why 8jBBC ender is actually the easiest way to do the w5C oki because it already does all the positioning for yourself. It's also the best way to get in the max range with w5C in order to deal with Ragna's or Tsubaki's 623C. However, I wouldn't recommend it.

    It's true that it's indeed a really convenient way to use w5C but this ender won't give you a lot of wolf gauge back. And you will need that wolf gauge to apply pressure to your opponent later. You should only consider this ender if you just need one combo to end the match or your wolf gauge is already full otherwise simply go with the tk214B>6C>3C ender.

      This guide is obviously in beta because there might be some new ways to escape pressure that I'm not aware of. If you know something that I didn't cover here, don't hesitate talking about it even if it might look silly.

      Once we will all agree that this guide is quite complete (need to add a few things like pictures), it will be added in Kiba's strategy guide in order to expand it.

      Also, if there is an explanation that seems unclear, please make sure to point it out. I'll try to write it in a more suitable way.

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+1. Really appreciate your contributions here man!

Once we will all agree that this guide is quite complete (need to add a few things like pictures), it will be added in Kiba's strategy guide in order to expand it.

Also, if there is an explanation that seems unclear, please make sure to point it out. I'll try to write it in a more suitable way.

Oh sure no problem! Everything is all well written.

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I added a little picture made by Kiba in order to show how w5C looks like against DPs.

I, however, don't really have anything else to add so the w5C guide will soon be included in Kiba's strategy guide.

If you have anything to suggest, consider that I overlooked something or think that a part is hard to understand, don't hesitate sharing it now.

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I think it's cool! Now reading it over again I'd put the picture where you explained the blue wave in the training section.

If anyone wants a visual reference to how this works, either watch the video on Valkenhayn setups by Tonberry, or watch Koge's Valk.

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Y'know that situation when u get a h5B (or any human normal) hit when you're cornered without 50 meter? Dont you want to side switch instead of working all the way to the other corner? Well I came up with a theory to switch sides without meter in this somewhat rare scenario.

How it starts:

Ok so you're cornered and you managed to poke out of someone's pressure (or some other situation). The basic thing you would imagine doing is the basic 5B 5C 236B 236B and try to work to reach the other corner. Well here's my solution to save you work and gauge; instead of doing the second rekka, do 6D>wJ.b afterwards instead.

How it works:

Ok so you did 6D>w.jb, now what? Well it depends on what their response was. Did they tech immediately? Cool, do a mixup afterwards into a side switch combo. Regardless of the starter, valk can always do a side swap combo with his 236C or his beast cannons. (Kiba's guide should have the guide to the side swap combos)

So what happens if they don't tech? Well, that's where the W.jb comes in. If the opponent doesn't tech, they'll get hit by the w.jb. They could either stay on the floor or force an emergency tech. Either situation is welcome thanks to the next part of this little neat OS.

This is where it can get a little complicated. Next, you plink w5a and w5b. This has two purposes. One, if the opponent stays there, you will pick them back up with w5a and w5b where you will then do a side swap combo from there (The side swap combo of choice depends on the starter. If it was a bad starter, doing 236B after w5b following with J6D>JD>JC or j236B would swap sides just fine. If the starter was a bit better, you can extend the side swap combo a bit more with additional beast cannons or other things.).

Now what if they tech after the wJ.B? Wont you get punished for whiffing those normals? Under normal circumstances, yes. But since we're plinking w5a and w5b, the w5b will not come out if the w5a were to whiff, making this setup 100% safe regardless of the situation. Best part, you can do a mixup after you whiff the w5a as he has plenty of time to setup a br.ja or any mixup situation after whiffing w5a in that situation.

This isn't groundbreaking, but it can definitely be convenient for the rare occasion that you manage to mash out of the corner or something. I personally find myself to be in this situation a lot and I didn't know the best way to start my oki other than to start from scratch. Well now I can start the deadliest part of my oki right after managing to land a cornered hit. Hope this helps!

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This is something I definitely need to be taking advantage of. Thanks dude. I'll get this into the guide too.

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Just picked up CP and I have a couple questions.

1. Has anyone experimented with the jokers enders from CSE?

2. Is there anyway to make falling j.C enders consistent or should I just stick with the wolf-variant wsj.B falling wj.B?

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1. You can still do the joker ender. Problem is that you're gonna use a lot of wolf gauge if you want to do it this way.

Just doing tk214B>6C>3C as an ender and jumping right after that provide you with a really easy safe jump that also beats extremely fast DPs like Ragna's inferno divider.

2. Falling jC enders are much more consistent in CP than in CSE thanks to wjC. Just do instead wjA(AA)>wjC>djD>jC. Like in CSE, it's height dependent for the falling jC in order to deal with delay techs.

You however have to keep in mind that:

-It leads to bad okizeme if the opponent emergency techs.

-Waste a lot of wolf gauge because you're in the air.

-Is really easy to spot so the opponent will always emergency tech.

-Isn't as useful as the w5C oki.

Go rather for the 6C>3C ender to get max wolf regen in order to improve your pressure on oki. You can then go for w5C oki in order to avoid reversals or any meaty you might want to do based on the meaty list I made.

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1. You can still do the joker ender. Problem is that you're gonna use a lot of wolf gauge if you want to do it this way.

Just doing tk214B>6C>3C as an ender and jumping right after that provide you with a really easy safe jump that also beats extremely fast DPs like Ragna's inferno divider.

2. Falling jC enders are much more consistent in CP than in CSE thanks to wjC. Just do instead wjA(AA)>wjC>djD>jC. Like in CSE, it's height dependent for the falling jC in order to deal with delay techs.

You however have to keep in mind that:

-It leads to bad okizeme if the opponent emergency techs.

-Waste a lot of wolf gauge because you're in the air.

-Is really easy to spot so the opponent will always emergency tech.

-Isn't as useful as the w5C oki.

Go rather for the 6C>3C ender to get max wolf regen in order to improve your pressure on oki. You can then go for w5C oki in order to avoid reversals or any meaty you might want to do based on the meaty list I made.

Im not worried about wolf gauge usage. I can adjust combo routes for that. I just wanted to know if someone had already done that for jokers enders. tk214B>6C>3C seems like it depends on the timing of your 3C so its not something I will use much. As far as j.C enders, The reason I use them is to force my opponent to emergency tech, and I meant consistently getting the correct height for falling j.C to deal with delay techs. This wasnt a problem in CSE due to the combo routes. What's your reasoning for saying it leads to bad oki?

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