GGACR/I-No/Matchup/Baiken: Difference between revisions

From Dustloop Wiki
< GGACR‎ | I-No
(→‎The General Gameplan: Formatting set up.)
(→‎Long Range: Formatting)
Line 53: Line 53:


===Long Range===
===Long Range===
You have to watch for Kabari (the horizontal chain) since you're in range, but you can STBT under it. Just don't try to challenge it because it doesn't have a hurtbox on it. Also watch for FB Tatami since you can't go under that and it reaches much higher too. With some movement from this distance she can get into range for j.S or 2S, though only the tip of the mace on j.S and the tip of the claw on 2S are disjointed. If you move away you can potentially whiff punish, and if you get closer you can potentially challenge these moves directly (6P should be able to beat both of them, though other options work too).
You can reach her from this range easily with STBT and Dive, but you're committing when you do that because she can make "safe on block" stuff totally unsafe. You want to bait <i>her</i> to move & act and either stuff her startup or whiff punish her. And then remember that taking the initiative to try to stuff her startup means that she could have chosen to block, and that situation favors her.
You can reach her from this range easily with STBT and Dive, but you're committing when you do that because she can make "safe on block" stuff totally unsafe. You want to bait <i>her</i> to move & act and either stuff her startup or whiff punish her. And then remember that taking the initiative to try to stuff her startup means that she could have chosen to block, and that situation favors her.


* You have to watch for Kabari (the horizontal chain) since you're in range, but you can STBT under it or jump and dive over it.
** Just don't try to challenge it because it doesn't have a hurtbox on it.
* Also watch for FB Tatami since you can't go under that and it reaches much higher too (enough to deal with dives in most instances).
* With some movement from this distance she can get into range for j.S or 2S, though only the tip of the mace on j.S and the tip of the claw on 2S are disjointed.
** If you move away you can potentially whiff punish, and if you get closer you can potentially challenge these moves directly (6P should be able to beat both of them, though other options work too).


===Full Screen===
===Full Screen===

Revision as of 23:13, 12 May 2021

The General Gameplan

  • Be cautious about "throwing out" moves, since a lot of "safe on block" attacks are not actually safe when Baiken can start her punish during blockstop. If you're pusing a button, it needs have a deliberate/specified purpose.
    • Don't just autopilot blockstrings if you get Baiken to block.
  • Try to get and maintain a life lead to force Baiken to come to you. You can beat her clean when she swings at you, or whiff punish, rather than giving her the initiative every time you try to attack her during your offense.
    • If she approaches with Terminator Run, stuff it with 2S. If she approaches from the air even better. Her air normals aren't great so you can generally counter-poke them (except j.D, or a well-spaced j.S), and she's committed to Tatami unless she FRCs it, giving you something to work with.
  • When you can get knockdown, definitely take advantage of multi-hit notes. If you can't get a multi-hit note on her, play it safe and don't be afraid to go back to neutral.
    • This is counter-intuitive to the AC matchup where you didn't want to give her something easy to block that could let her use her counters. However, since Sakura doesn't have strike invul and Baku doesn't have strike invul on the first frame, the extra note hits will give you a little extra time to safely run your mixup or bait the counter attempt.
  • Utilize more lows and throws than you normally would when you're able to get in range. It's harder to input her counters against lows, costing her the speed necessary to make them "unblockable". Hitting Baiken with lows is typically effective a making it harder for Baiken to counter them quickly, since her input is 412 + button.
    • Baiken would have to either do them slower by going from 1 (blocking) to 412, costing at minimum 1 frame (in practical terms it's likely higher), or would need to buffer the counter ahead of time.
    • If she buffers the counter ahead of time, she's stuck with a window for the move to count as registered, so delayed options (2S instead of 2K) or throw become more effective.
    • Do 2K > wait, and then punish Baiken on block.
  • When running oki, and especially in the corner, look for use of her Mawarikomi (the slide/sidestep) and Ouren (the jump into overhead) which are much easier to deal with if you're looking for them.
    • Baiken players will typically try to escape the corner with Ouren, and it's lack of invul on startup means you can bait it with a couple of setups for juicy counterhits.
    • The slide only has strike invul, so if you bait it with a move that recovers quickly enough you can throw her as she tries to move past you.
    • If you're really having a hard time dealing with the counters, consider just running high/low mixups without note coverage. There's additional risk, but it's easier to execute, and she can't counter what she can't block. If your high/low/throw game is on point and she's overly patient because you keep letting her get away with counters after note or f.S, you might get the edge just from leaving that part out.


Learn to recognize whether or not your opponent can perform her counters with "unblockable" speed or not.

If she can't, there's a lot less reason to be afraid of the character, as you'll be able to play around her counters by using a lot more 2P and blocking. A key consideration with this character is that, when played optimally, there's little you can do about her counters assuming the Baiken is reading neutral correctly. However, most Baiken's do not play at the level of execution required to input the counters well, and even if they can, they also have to have tons of matchup experience to not get caught off guard by your neutral. And even if they do, you can still condition them and then blow up their expectations.


What your opponent can do

Baiken is going to control space with her very active Tatami mat, along with her Kabari (the horizontal chain), f.S and j.D, and sometimes her Youshijin chain (the upward one). If she gets you to block she can run high/low mixups using her TK Youzansen which is a 6f overhead. If you get her to block, it's kinda still her turn since she has her meterless guard cancels. That's right, she can attack from blockstun! She also has a command dash, affectionately named "Terminator Run" by the community, that autoguards mids and highs and allows her to cancel into her counter attacks without having to block something first. This means that at certain spacing she has workable strike/throw setups. She also has rather high damage output if she dumps all of her meter, and her Force Break counter allows her to curse you. She can either remove your mobility for 12 seconds (no jump, dash, or backdash), or make all of her hits counterhits for 8 seconds (though it prorates heavily and removes stun damage), or make her next hit unblockable for 4 seconds (which prorates even more heavily). She can then apply a second curse that seals one of your buttons for the duration of the other part of the curse.

So despite the low defense she's actually a monster of a character.

  • Baiken's guard cancel moves can be used during blockstop in addition to blockstun. She is the only character that can move during this window and that makes her extraordinarily strong if the player can utilize it well.
    • Normally when a move makes contact with an opponent, on hit or block there is a pause or "stop" period (it is the same for on hit or on block). Normally it lasts for 11f for lvl 1 moves, and you add a frame for each level, up to 15f at lvl 5. This period occurs before blockstun, and both characters are stopped in place.
      • Some moves have nonstandard hitstop or blockstop, and you can find that in the frame data. Examples are Sidewinder (massive hitstop), and Jam's 5K (only 6f blockstop). I-No's f.S has zero frames of hitstop/blockstop.

Your Opponent's Gameplan

Spacing & Advantage (By Screen Position)

Up Close

I would say that I-No's options are advantaged, but Baiken's ability to guard cancel through your pressure and guarantee punishes on blocked STBT and Dives really screws things up for us. Again, use more lows and throws than usual since you're in optimal range to do so.

  • TK Fortissimo can blow her up for pushing a button and it's difficult to effectively punish with her guard cancels due to the speed and multi-hit, so don't be afraid to use it here.
  • If the Baiken is prone to using Ouren to create space, you can blow that up with frametraps into HCL. The counterhit will let you convert meterless in the corner if you catch her before she moves past you, and it's some serious damage. Of course, other frametraps can work and you should experiment.
  • You can 6P through a couple of her grounded normals.
  • If she's jumping at this range you can probably blow through all of her air options with 6P.
  • Tatami is unsafe when used too close. If used around where 2K can barely make contact it can be safe due to the startup of our longer range moves...
    • ...but you can learn to Slashback it on reaction (the first hit as it sticks up out of the ground) since it's got so much active and recovery frames that she would need to FRC to safely punish a late slashback.

Round Start Range

  • Funnily enough, 5P will cause f.S to whiff where it would otherwise hit (assuming both players push the button at the exact same time at this range).
  • Look for opportunities to blow up anti-airs (like Youshijin or 6P) with 5H, though Baiken would be doing this as a guess against TK dive or something... just don't forget that this is an answer that really hurts Baiken.


Long Range

You can reach her from this range easily with STBT and Dive, but you're committing when you do that because she can make "safe on block" stuff totally unsafe. You want to bait her to move & act and either stuff her startup or whiff punish her. And then remember that taking the initiative to try to stuff her startup means that she could have chosen to block, and that situation favors her.

  • You have to watch for Kabari (the horizontal chain) since you're in range, but you can STBT under it or jump and dive over it.
    • Just don't try to challenge it because it doesn't have a hurtbox on it.
  • Also watch for FB Tatami since you can't go under that and it reaches much higher too (enough to deal with dives in most instances).
  • With some movement from this distance she can get into range for j.S or 2S, though only the tip of the mace on j.S and the tip of the claw on 2S are disjointed.
    • If you move away you can potentially whiff punish, and if you get closer you can potentially challenge these moves directly (6P should be able to beat both of them, though other options work too).

Full Screen

Being at full screen isn't necessarily ideal, but I-No has the advantage due to being able to safely shoot notes. The best answer Baiken has to that is dodging them, or running close enough to FB Tatami to hit you out of note startup. She's too far away to Terminator Run into Ouren, or to Terminator run at you in general, and Kabari is too slow to stop us from using Note on reaction. If she's using it more actively (on prediction, or just to control space) we can jump > Dive to punish, or STBT under it. Just don't try to challenge it directly since it's totally disjointed and will beat or clash whatever you attack it with.

If you find yourself in this situation, feel free to hang back just outside of her range (consider the horizontal chain, FB Tatami, and Kire Tatami) safely shooting notes while goading her to overextend to a range where you can directly challenge her normals. As long as the impetus is on her to approach, she's disadvantaged due to the time it takes to get to the ideal range to use her other moves. Get comfortable acting at this range even when Baiken has the life lead so that you can learn to lock her down with a note, and keep in mind that you cannot traverse full screen to begin pressure when a 5-hit note is blocked. You have simply bought yourself time to reposition and to bait something that you can punish.


Button Interactions

  • 5P: Baiken should mostly be doing this on oki following a tatami that forced you to block. The hitbox isn't terrible, but it isn't great. The main draw is that she can do almost anything from it, including TK Youzansen or 2K for a legit 50:50 mixup. As a poke though... 6P it, go under it, come in from above, etc.
  • 2P: Hitbox is inside hurtbox. Very easy to challenge unless she's doing it for the speed advantage.
  • 6P: This one has 2 hits, but only the first has the disjoint/invul.
    • If you're airborne come in late to punish (but later than normal).
    • On the ground, blow it up with 5H if you have space, especially since the extra active frames from the 2nd hit give you plenty of time to fish for the CH.
  • 5K:
  • 2K:
  • 6K:
  • c.S:
  • f.S: Good disjointed hitbox in front. Doesn't lead to much unless it's a counterhit. Allows a jump cancel, but cannot go directly into lows.
    • Near it's max range I-No can't directly challenge it with normals due to the lack of an extended hurtbox. You would need to jump > dive, or STBT under it.
  • 2S: Only the claw part is disjointed. You can blow it up with 6P depending on spacing.
  • 5H:
  • 2H:
  • 6H:
  • 5D:
  • 2D:
  • j.P:
  • j.K:
  • j.S:
  • j.H:
  • j.D:


Special Moves

  • Tatami controls a lot of space and pisses a lot of players off, but it has enough weaknesses built in.
    • Tatami expands her hurtbox during startup, and it's not fast. This makes it really easy to counterpoke just before it goes active, even if she's flying at you from 2/3 screen with Kire Tatami.
    • Attempting to slashback a Tatami is usually pretty safe since she'd need to FRC to punish you, and the reward is typically getting a punish where you otherwise wouldn't.

Counters

  • Sakura (her S counter) allows Baiken to punish on block moves that are normally safe. It's the horizontal stab move with the Sakura flower petals. It's fast (frame 10) and has an FRC point when it goes active).
    • You can go under Sakura with STBT, but STBT-S itself can get punished on block by Sakura if the Baiken is aware and looking for it.
      • At least with STBT-H you can jump cancel into FD. Punishing this before you jump out of the way would require the Baiken have excellent execution.
        • Jumping out into FD is safe against Zakuro since it's a strike and not a grab, so FD will protect you.
    • I-No's Kdive and Sdive have a lot of landing recovery and are also subject to being punished by Sakura. Yes, even Kdive which can be + on block.
      • Sometimes utilize Pdive to bounce and make Sakura whiff. Zakuro will typically whiff as you land from the other dives, so if she switches to Zakuro to retaliate against Pdives, you're technically winning since you can now use Kdive and Sdive again.
      • Also slightly hold your dives sometimes to mess with the timing, but only do this if your opponent displays the ability to consistently punish your dives in the first place. Otherwise you'll make it easier for her to react. The goal is to "keep her honest" so she can't autopilot the guard cancels against your "usual timing." This way your opponent will have to focus more moment-to-moment on reactions, which will make other tactics more effective.
  • Zakuro (P counter - the anti-air pinwheel thing) is her fastest at frame 9. It's not great for damage due to the heavy forced prorate and multi-hit scaling, but it builds her a ton of meter and knocks down.
    • You either need to come in low (like from a well spaced dive) to get this to whiff, or do more crossups, or you need to empty jump. Buffered Zakuro use can shut down jump-in attempts quite well.
    • Zakuro allows Baiken to score 25% tension and a knockdown against jump-ins if she learns the timing. It'll be relatively consistent in situations where you don't have a lot of options other than to land on her with a hitbox or risk getting anti-air'd.
    • What's frustrating is that she can buffer the input and release the button to negative edge, ensuring she doesn't do something she doesn't want if you empty jump, so she can try to throw you on landing. This makes it harder to bait her into doing it "slightly wrong" to blow her up. In this case, blow her up with raw Fortissimo. If you try to cancel into it, she'll hit you during hitstop before the move starts, so the attempt will be wasted. Or come in at an angle where it's harder for her to counter you such as via a crossup, or make contact really low so she'll whiff Zakuro, and her timing has to be perfect with Sakura if she adapts to that.
  • Baku (the force break counter) is 2-12 strike invul. Generally if she hits you with this and is doing it right, it'll be a counterhit. On air CH this leads to significant damage (compared to Zakuro, which is typically only worth it for meter gain and to deter/modify your jump-in strategy).
    • This will hit you out of STBT, so be really careful of that.
    • Most Baiken players will combo into the "all hits are counterhits" curse, which is typically not great, but lets her do like 35% damage for no additional meter cost.


Pressure

Hah... pressuring Baiken. That doesn't really exist... everything you do is a bait against a guard cancel.

  • Normal > STBT-S to blow up Sakura. Can fail if the Sakura was buffered and performed as the normal made contact, during blockstop.
  • Normal > jump cancel. Can dodge Sakura, has a lot of freedom, and would encourage Zakuro to bait a jump (which is not air unblockable).
    • Jumping typically leads to overheads (such as TK dive or j.D), but remember that you're somewhat predictable once you're in the air.
  • Normal > wait. Remember that STBT-S is low profile on frame 3, whereas you'd be waiting for your normal's recovery to end... but depending on horizontal spacing you may need to do this to be safe against Baku. Most effective with 2P.


Escaping Pressure

  • Her 2H is +4, but you can IB it on reaction pretty easily since she needs to RC to do anything other than let all 3 hits rock. She can't special cancel it. It has vacuum but if you IB (or SB) to create advantage you can potentially throw her, since she has the 2nd shortest ground throw range in the game. It's a good tool for setting up tick throws, but it's still very difficult for her to actually go for them.
    • Watch her horizontal positioning closely. If she's far away she either has to reposition to try to throw, or is going to push a button.
  • Kabari (the horizontal chain) is +2, but again, IB to create a gap you can work with.
    • If she uses it from really long range, she might use it again, or she might be patient and watch for what you're doing. You're typically free to back up and make her feel like she's wasting her time, and if she tries to overextend to catch you escaping later, you can much more easily blow her up on reaction to that.
    • If she uses it from close enough to try to trap you with f.S or 2S, you may be able to challenge the 2S with IB, or you can just IB the follow-up normal and force her to do something. If she's not in range for 5P or c.S she's not in range to mix you up, so you can afford to be patient and block. You can also take the risk on TK Sdive for a combo if you want.
      • Weaker Baikens will use Zakuro counter against dives that are too low to catch, when she should be using Sakura counter to hit your recovery frames. This wont help you beat the best players, but you shouldn't lose to weak players either, so learn how to exploit their weaknesses until they adapt.
  • TK Youzansen is a strong overhead option, but Baiken only really* has a mixup with it from 5P and c.S.
    • Yes, she can jump cancel into it from anything, but only 5P and c.S offer both a jump cancel and a gatling to a low (and 6H*, but that's a much less common situation and there's more pushback so FD can ruin that).
      • If she uses 5K, f.S, 6P, or 2D, you know she can't go low, so just stand block. Watch her meter for RC into low though, which I never see anyone do, but a strong Baiken would use as a gimmick to clutch a round if they recognize that you can block.


Special/Notable Confirms

Navigation