User:Basinator

785 editsJoined 19 September 2021

Contact through Discord: Basinator#8267

Venom page copied over from https://www.dustloop.com/w/User:Badoor

2D(2) Knockdown

Standard knockdown option. 2D(2) is used when

  • it is not possible to get c.S to combo to QV on crouching, either due to lack of proximity or gatling restrictions (such as from f.S/2S/2H)
  • it is not close enough to get c.S(3) on standing (particularly obnoxious on thin characters like Chipp/Slayer)

K-set (214K)

The classic. Very robust and dependable. It's no wonder this is the first oki any Venom player learns in any Guilty Gear he's in.

Dash j.K/j.S BH, side switch setup

The ball should meaty on the opponent's wake up, and Venom should be on the other side as the ball pushes the opponent towards Venom. This is great as it will put the opponent right next to Venom, guaranteeing a 2K > cS(3) to hit on standing on any character.

Mix-up Options

Route Notes
...> 2D(2) > 214K , 66 j.K/j.S BH, sideswitch 2K > c.S(3) Side-switch low option.
...> 2D(2) > 214K , 66 j.K/j.S BH, sideswitch late back airdash j.S Back airdash being faster than a forward one means it'll lead to a stronger mixup than a standard late forward airdash or low.
...> 2D(2) > 214K , 66 j.K/j.S BH, sideswitch late back airdash dl. j.S > j.236S/H Instead of instantly doing j.S during the back airdash, if Venom delays the j.S he would do it after correcting sides and facing the opponent, and that opens up the option of doing a Mad Struggle after the j.S, or a low after landing.
...> 2D(2) > 214K , 66 j.K/j.S BH, sideswitch back airdash ▷ Throw -
...> 2D(2) > 214K , 66 j.K/j.S BH, sideswitch back airdash > (whiff) j.H ▷ Throw j.H would whiff if they're blocking but it can hit if they are trying to mash out of the throw. You can OS by tapping 5S just after the throw, and if the j.H whiffs, the 5S would not do anything during the throw animation, but if j.H counter hits, the 5S input would lead to c.S comboing after.
Beats/Loses To
+ Blitz proximity rejection (if you use j.S BH, or sometimes j.K BH at a proper spacing)
+ DPs and other reversals with weak backwards hitbox (like Sol's Volcanic Viper
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)
+ Low profile reversals (if j.K BH is used since it hits at a deeper angle)
- Blitz proximity rejection (if you use j.K BH at an off timing)
- Dead Angle (but possible to bait with 2D low profile depending on dead angle hitbox. Often requires j.K BH)
- DPs with strong backwards hitbox
j.K or j.S BH?
Notes Further Details
j.K gives Venom slightly more frame advantage than using j.S. This is because j.K hits the ball slower and deeper than j.S, and that means Venom can jump and hit the ball with j.K earlier than j.S, whereas hitting K-ball with j.S too early would make it whiff past the opponent before they've woken up, especially if they have a slow wake up.
The extra advantage granted by j.K can make it possible for Venom to land sooner and do 2D instead of 2K as a low, low profiling some dead angle attacks. -
The ability to hit K-ball earlier with j.K also allows Venom to jump over and safely get behind more DPs than possible with j.S. Axl, Chipp, and Leo can be jumped behind safely with j.K, but is seemingly impossible with j.S. Ky's DP can't be jumped behind with either j.K or j.S. Sol's DP, Johnny and Elphelt's reversal super, and any other super with no back reaching hitbox can be safely jumped over with either j.K or j.S.
Hitting K-ball with j.K is more prone to getting blitz proximity rejected, since Venom would be closer to the opponent than if you hit with j.S when they do their reversal blitz on wake up. There are ranges where hitting with j.K can be blitz safe, mainly if it's timed where the ball meaties while Venom is at the apex of his dash jump, barely going over the blitz projectile rejection hitbox, but it is unreliable.

j.K/j.S BH, same side setup

Close knockdowns might make it hard to remain same side. Back walk before doing j.K/j.S might be needed.

This can be done in various ways, like a forward jump j.K/j.S, or dash neutral jump. The most effective is instant dash jump (notated as 66 9) j.K/j.S BH as it puts you closest to the opponent for the best possible low opener combo. Doing same side oki is useful if the corner is close and you want to push them towards it with your combo or blockstring. However, it leads to weaker empty low reward as 2K > c.S(3) might not connect on standing opponents, or you might not be even close enough to gatling 2K to c.S, and get a 2K > f.S instead. The instant dash jump also opens up the falling j.P/j.S options, as well as the falling j.S > jc j.H > j.236236H
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F-Shiki Sometimes known as "Fuzzy Overhead". When you are in blockstun, you can switch high/low blocking, but your blocking animation and hurtbox does not change until you leave blockstun or block another attack. F-Shikis take advantage of this and use overheads that would miss on crouching characters, but not on standing characters. overhead option. The instant dash j.K can lose to blitz proximity rejection though, as Venom would be close to the opponent when they do wake up blitz.

Mix-up Options

Route Notes
...> 2D > 214K , 66 9 j.K/j.S BH ▷ same side 2K Same side low option.
...> 2D > 214K , 66 9 j.K/j.S BH > dl. 66 j.S > j.H Delay forward airdash for a same side, double overhead.
...> 2D > 214K , 66 9 j.K/j.S BH > j.S/j.P > j.236S -
...> 2D > 214K , 66 9 j.K/j.S BH > j.S/j.P2K Works if the jump reaches them.
...> 2D > 214K , 66 9 j.K/j.S BH > j.S > jc j.H > j.236236H F-Shiki Sometimes known as "Fuzzy Overhead". When you are in blockstun, you can switch high/low blocking, but your blocking animation and hurtbox does not change until you leave blockstun or block another attack. F-Shikis take advantage of this and use overheads that would miss on crouching characters, but not on standing characters. overhead option. Works if the jump reaches them.
Beats/Loses To
+ Blitz proximity rejection (if you use j.S BH, or j.K BH from far enough)
+ Low profile reversals (if j.K BH is used since it hits at a deeper angle than j.S)
- Dead Angle
- DPs (Although with j.K you might be able to recover and block on ground, or air FD)
- Blitz proximity rejection (if you use j.K BH close to them)

Early Long Dash j.K BH cross up / "uncross up"

If you do an instant long dash after K-set before doing j.K BH, the ball would meaty them after sides have switched, and it would push the opponent away from where Venom lands. This ball would often land during cross up protection, but it can hit as a true cross up if done early enough. This removes the empty low option since the opponent would be pushed away out of range of you 2K or 2D, but it can open up a new left/right mix up layered on top of the ball itself landing as cross up. So even if the ball lands during cross up protection, you can get a solid tricky left/right mix up out of it.

Restrictions

  • Requires a close 2D(2) knockdown for the ball to push them in a way to allow the left/right mix
  • Needs an average or slower face up wake up for ball to hit as cross up
  • Demanding execution to convert the jD "uncross up" mix to a damaging combo with dash j.PPHD or IAD j.SHD routes
  • Faust's crawl can go under j.D, so this oki is not recommended vs Faust

Mix-up Options

Route Notes
...> 2D(2) > 214K , long 66 9 j.K BH , IADB , sameside dl. j.D "Uncross up" same-side option with instant airdash back and delayed j.D. Convert the hit with land 6H / land 66 j.PPHD ▷ 66 6H / land IAD j.SHD > land j.SHD6H. Need to hit after blockstun for the mix up to not be autoblocked.
...> 2D(2) > 214K , long 66 9 j.K BH , sideswitch dl. 44 j.S Cross-up option with delayed airdash back j.S. Need to hit after blockstun for the mix up to not be autoblocked.
...> 2D(2) > 214K , long 66 9 j.K BH > (ball lands cross-up) > 44 j.Sc.S Can convert cross-up ball into a combo, or continue with the left/right mix and use the hit as a reset to strengthen the mix up.
Beats/Loses To
+ DPs (if they don't side-switch their input, other wise it will lose to most DPs)
+ Dead Angle (if they don't block the ball correctly and side-switch their input, otherwise the dead angle input works as a strong left/right "Dead Angle or FD" option select)
+ Low profile reversals (If the ball hits deep enough)
- Blitz proximity rejection (Although it can be blitz safe if the ball connects when Venom is at the apex of his jump)

Dash Superjump j.K BH same side / side switch Setup

This option has all the benefits of hitting K-ball with jK in the previously mentioned dash jump "side switch" and "same side" options (DP safety, low profile safety, able to bait dead angle with low profile 2D, high frame advantage before doing the overhead or low mix up) without the main disadvantage of jK BH, which is getting wake up blitz rejected. While it's true that dash normal jump jK BH can be blitz safe, it is not so dependable, and many of the benefits of jK BH require an early hit to gain more frame advantage in order to be safe from DPs or to land early enough to bait dead angles with 2D, and that tends to put you close to the opponent when the ball meaties, making you more vulnerable to blitz proximity rejection. The dash super jump input can be tricky, and it can be done "manually" with a dash then super jump jK, which is 65639K (or 6639K if we emit the neutral 5 input), but there's more risk of dashing too far before jumping, making jK not hit K-ball. It can also be done via a shortcut with 652569K (or 6269K). The "same side" and "side switch" variants retain some of their advantages, while losing others. With "side switch", it still makes DPs with weak back hitboxes whiff, and it guarantees a point block 2K cS(3) to hit everyone standing, but "side switch" loses the faster "back airdash" option that made back airdash jS a faster overhead, and an empty back airdash (or back airdash jH whiff) land throw possible. With "same side", you lose the falling jS jc jH > Red Hail F-Shiki overhead option since you can't double jump after doing a raw super jump. Lastly, due to the height, it can be easy to mess up, airdash too early and sail over a crouching opponent, particularly a short one like Baiken. If the airdash timing feels tricky, it might be easier to switch to a late mad struggle for either "same side" or "side switch" variant as an alternative overhead option with less chance of messing up, although it might be easier for the opponent to react to mad struggle than the airdash option.

Restrictions

  • Dash sj jK needs to be done instantly. Dashing for any amount longer would make jK not hit K-ball
  • Dash super jump shortcut 6269 can be used to do it. Doing it without the shortcut, with 65639, is possible, but much harder to do

Beats/Loses To

  • + Blitz proximity rejection
  • + Low profile reversals (if the ball lands deep enough)
  • - DPs with strong backwards hitbox (but not Volcanic Viper, Venom can also air FD any DP after recovering from jK)
  • - Dead Angle (but it's possible to bait with 2D if the Dead Angle Attack doesnn't have a big lower hitbox, and if Venom lands early enough)

Mix-up Options

  • Late forward airdash or low
  • Late Mad Struggle or low as an alternative that does more chip damage and might be less prone to IBs if they are expecting a late airdash
  • Falling jS to beat some slack fuzzy guarding attempts to block the standard high/low mix up options

P-set

The basic. Simple and effective. Can use the ball to meaty and approach to start a blockstring, or stay back and zone some more while P-ball protects you from ground pokes and ground approaches.

P-set (214P)
option description meter usage mix up options restrictions beats/loses to video
5P BH After summoning it, P-ball takes some time for it to reach its low position. If P-ball is hit immediately with 5P, it would be moving high enough to stop most characters dashing in or even IADing in, but it would whiff on crouching or other low profile moves. So rather than waiting for P-ball to reach it's position, it's possible to use that time to close the distance by doing a short dash before hitting P-ball with 5P. Hitting it with 5P might not have the ball meaty if the knockdown is far and their wake up is fast, but you can "lead" the ball with a normal to keep them in blockstun before the ball reaches None This option doesn't really allow for an easy mix up since P-ball isn't doing the lockdown itself. But the threat of the incoming P-ball can give you "mental frame advantage" and also protection from mashing, as the P-ball should trade with most of their options aside from invincible moves and throws. P-ball might not meaty if the knockdown is far and if they have a fast wake up. You can, however, "lead" P-ball with normals.
  • + Blitz (if they reject your normal, the incoming P-ball will still
  • - DPs (but trailing P-ball might trade with their reversal)
  • - Dead Angle (but trailing P-ball might trade with dead angle)
Video Example
5K BH Just like the 5P option, you would need some time after summoning P-ball before you can hit it low enough. Best to use that time to get closer by doing a short dash after P-set before you hit it. 5K's faster BH speed guarantees that it would meaty on anyone, but it'll give you less frame advantage than a 5P BH, although in most cases its enough to start a blockstring safe from reversals, or do a throw or TK Mad Struggle mix up. none
  • Throw or low
  • TK Mad Struggle or low
none
  • + Blitz proximity rejection (if spaced correctly)
  • - DPs (but it's possible to bait them)
  • - Dead Angle (possible to bait them)
Video Example

H-set

Has a simple safe jump usage that is sadly vulnerable to wake up blitz, and a more complex option using sCR TS that is particularly strong against wake up blitz and reversals

H-set (214H)
option description meter usage mix up options restrictions beats/loses to video
Dash jump late jS + BH Safe jumps any invincible reversal, by having jS itself connect with the opponent very close to the ground when they wake up (AKA a normal safe jump), with jS then hitting H-ball shortly after the opponent. Since the ball is hit after jS's hitstop, the lockdown would be high, and jS can be cancelled at this point to Mad Struggle to hit gapless, allowing for a strong unmashable Mad Struggle or low mix up. This specific timing can be hard to do on fast reversals like Sol's H-Volcanic Viper. If the dash jump is done too early, jS would not connect with the opponent since they would still be down, but jS would hit H-ball, and H-ball should meaty. This does give you more leeway in that you'd be safe jumping their reversal even if you jumped too early and the jS here didn't hit the opponent. This timing can also catch players off guard trying to block the whiffing jS standing, and instead get opened up with the low. none
  • Mad Struggle or Low (unmashable by fast buttons or DPs)
  • TK Mad Struggle or low (after landing you'd still be plus to force that)
  • Throw or low (after landing)
none
  • + DPs
  • + Dead Angle (if Baited. 2D can also be used as the low starter instead of 2K and it can low profile some Dead Angles)
  • - Blitz (either by rejecting jS, or rejecting H-ball and subsequently Venom via proximity. The H-set and dash jump is very telegraphed, and baiting the blitz requires landing and doing low or throw, which would lose to wake up throw)
Video Example
sCR TS dash jH BH The S-Carcass Raid should meaty the opponent on wake up, while also colliding with H-ball. The generated ball is then hit with the dash jH, and it should connect soon after carcass that there would be no gap between the two balls even if carcass was Instant Blocked. The 2-hits of the ball hit by jH should create enough lockdown for a late airdash or low mix up. This setup is particularly blitz safe since blitzing Carcass Raid won't get them out of the second ball you hit with jH, and they'd have to either block that second ball, or do a reversal DP right after blitz, or backdash (if they have a good eneough backdash), or do a second blitz. If they do a charge blitz to reject the second ball, Venom would still be safe, and he can punish the charged blitz with a low or throw. Wake up DP can hit Venom out of his dash jH if the knockdown is done close enough, but at the appropriate distance, most wake up DPs would clash with jH. Carcass Raid, however, can whiff on some characters crouching at certain spacings.

To ensure that their wake up DP whiffs, allowing for a true punish, Venom has two options:-

  1. Delay S-Carcass Raid, then do dash jH instantly after (this will have carcass not meaty, and it will give them a chance to jump out or move)
  2. Do S-Carcass Raid instantly, but delay the dash jH (this will have carcass meaty, but it will open a gap between carcass and the jH BH to do a reversal, especially if they IB'd carcass, or blocked it crouching, or both)
none
  • Late Airdash/Mad Struggle or low (unmashable)
  • Needs a specific knockdown spacing for carcass to not whiff on crouching, while also being far enough for the dash jH to clash or not get hit with their wake up DP.
  • 2D(2) > 214H [2]8+S can be demending execution-wise. The H-set can be input as 2141H so charging carcass can be done as soon as possible
  • + Blitz (Opponent can't even use blitz reject's short invulnerability to escape the subsequent attack. They'd either have to block, backdash, or DP after. Using charged blitz to reject carcass and the jH BH won't reject Venom either, and allows Venom to punish their charge blitz with a low or throw.
  • + Most DPs (Either by jH clashing, which won't allow Venom to punish if the clash was canceled to FD, or by completely whiffing if adjusted to specifically bait DPs, even if that can create other gaps for the opponent to escape from.
  • - Dead Angle (Blocking carcass and then the jH BH would take a moderate amount of chip, so they can take that damage to save tension for the dead angle, or FD and then dead angle if they have enough)
Video example

Charged S-Stinger Aim

Solid way to get plus frames that sets up offense while also building tension and risc and also doing chip damage. Weak to low profile moves.

Charged S-Stinger Aim ([4]6S)
option description meter usage mix up options restrictions beats/loses to video
Charge S-Stinger Aim lvl2 if you cancel 2D(2) to S-Stinger Aim, you should be able to charge it to lvl 2 to produce a 3-hit charged ball. It'll give you a lot of advantage to approach safely without risk of getting challenged with DPs or Throws. Backdashing won't work either since the slow ball would still catch them after backdash invincibility runs out. This option is weak to low profile reversals like Sol's Grand Viper, or Faust's crawl, or Chipp's 6P none
  • TK Mad Strugggle or Low (needs a dash to be in range)
  • Throw or low
none
  • + DPs
  • + Blitz proximity reject
  • - Low Profile reversals
Video example

K, H-set

Offers two solid DP + Blitz safe options when used with YRC

K, H-set (214K 214H, or 214K,H)
option description meter usage mix up options restrictions beats/loses to video
6H BH YRC Teleport 6H hits H-ball and Venom does YRC immediately after. During YRC start up, H-ball connects, and the RC freeze happens after, with the slowdown doubling the amount of hitstun/blockstun. Venom can teleport to the remaining K-ball-in-H-form and do jS to continue the combo or start a mix up after. jS connects with the oppoent and with k-ball, and on block it creates a long enough lock down for a mad struggle or low mix up that is unmashable. In case they did a wake up DP, the h-ball hit by 6H would collide, and Venom would just do a neutral telport and should be safe from getting hit with the DP, and might even be able to punish it. If the blitz H-ball, K-ball would still be there and Venom would teleport and stil force a mix up on the opponent. none
  • Mad Struggle or low
  • Airdash or low
none
  • - DPs
  • - Blitz
  • - Dead Angle
Video example
Dash jH BH YRC Venom dashes and hits H-ball with jH just before he YRCs. The H-ball should connect during YRC start up, and the YRC freeze would extend the hitstun/blockstun. The freeze should also give you time to react to their reversal DP (by reacting to the "REVERSAL" prompt on screen) and you can air FD to block their DP and punish. Air FDing them can still give them an out to RRC their DP, but if you airdash back or double jump away, you can make their DP whiff. But in case the blocked H-ball, you can do falling jKS, and jS should hit K-ball-in-H-form and lock them down enough for an unmashable Mad Struggle or low mix up %25 for YRC
  • Mad Struggle or low (unmashable)
none
  • + DPs
  • * Blitz
  • - Dead Angle
Video example

S, P-set

Offers a potent throw or low mix up that is safe from DPs and blitz, with a big damage reward on the low, as well as safety from mashes thanks to a trailing P-ball leading to a trade

S, P-set (214S 214P, or 214S,P)
option description meter usage mix up options restrictions beats/loses to video
dash 5P BH Venom hits both S-ball and P-ball with 5P. S-ball meaties, giving frame advantage, while P-ball trails behind. After S-ball connects, Venom can dash and throw before P-ball reaches, or he can do a low. If Venom does a low with 2D, he can use the trailing P-ball to combo afte 2D(1) and into QV for a much more damaging low starter combo than if 2K was used. The trailing P-ball also offers safety in case the opponent tries to mash out of the throw, as even if Venom is hit, the trailing P-ball would trade, possibly with a chance for Venom to convert to a combo. At the very least, it would hamper the opponent's combo potential out of the mash significantly. The opponent can use throws or invincible moves to hit Venom out of the throw while being safe from P-ball. The opponent can jump out of the throw, but if they jump back, or backdash out of a throw, the trailing P-ball still restricts their movement. The same concept of safety with P-ball applies if Venom goes for a TK Mad Struggle mix up instead of a throw mix up. Otherwise, Venom can stick a low recovery normal like a 2K between the S and P-ball to keep them locked down, and P-ball would connect after, giving Venom advantage to run a throw mix up or a TK Mad Struggle mix up. none
  • Throw or low (with bigger reward on the low than usual)
  • TK Mad Struggle or low (with bigger reward on the low than usual)
none
  • + Wake up DPs (they could DP the throw after S-ball is blocked. But the low option can hit as a true string after S-ball, and that may catch their reversal input, or at least it would make Venom not get hit in this fork of the mix up).
  • + Blitz
  • + backdash (S-ball would still be there, so they can't start an attack or punish Venom for his offense. They could escape though)
  • - Dead Angle
Video example


Margaret Notes

Notes are from watching Taihichi's replays.

Usable Blockstrings

  • 5C > 214C
    • catches jumps after blocked 5C
    • leads to oki on hit
  • raw 5C > 236C
    • pushes opponent away
  • 2C > 2A+B
    • use when spaced, reactable
    • large blockstun from 2C
    • at certain ranges, can hop cancel into j.C
    • can also omit sweep and go straight to hop cancel j.C due to high blockstun
  • high j.C > j.22C / j.2D
    • if opponent respects, can continue offense
  • blocked high j.2D > fall 66j.B
    • allows Margaret to continue offense

Options after safejump j.22C

  • j.C
  • 2A
  • rejump j.2D