User:NomadNoah/VenomCombos: Difference between revisions

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===Trading Meter for Damage ===
===Trading Meter for Damage ===
===Enders & Oki===
===Enders & Oki===
===Damage From Mixup Options Comparison===
===Damage Comparison on Mixups===
 
Using Venom's midscreen B&B as a 'control,' this table will show what kind of damage you can expect from different starters. Note that this ''does not mean'' that you should only pursue the most damaging starters; they all have a place, and should all be represented to build a holistic mixup game.
{| class="wikitable sortable" border="1" style="min-width: 1000px; width: 100%; style="margin: 1em auto 1em auto;text-align: center"
! rowspan=2| Starter !! rowspan=2| Combo Body !! rowspan=2| Damage
|-
| 5K > c.S(3)<br>(90% prorate; control for an opening hit that's not a mixup option)
| rowspan="6" | ... > 6K > sCR > 6K > h~dSet > f.S > xDBC > xSet
| 113
|-
| 2K > c.S(3)<br>(Low, 70% prorate)
| 87
|-
| TK sMS(2) > c.S(3)<br>(Overhead)
| 127
|-
| 2D(1) > sSA FRC > c.S(1)<br>(Low, 25 Tension)
| 158
|-
| FB MS > c.S(1)<br>(Overhead, 25 Tension, 90% prorate, 2 hits)
| 145
|-
| Throw > c.S(1)<br>(Non-strike, 50% prorate, 7 hits)
| 97
|}
There are a few key conclusions we can draw from this -
* Using meter to skip the full hit count of c.S(3) keeps damage high, by avoiding spending guard bar on just getting the opponent airborne
* With meter, every mixup option becomes roughly evenly threatening due to their similar and high damage
* Even low damage options are highly valuable, because their okizeme is identical to the stronger options





Revision as of 08:02, 20 May 2022

Venom Specific Notation

Notation Full name Alternatives Meaning
xSet Ball Set 214X X will be substituted for whatever ball set is necessary. If any ball set works, it will just say xSet.
x~dSet Alternate Ball Set 214X~D Indicates use of specific alternate ball sets/formations.

Basically, any specified Ball Set/Dubious Curve requires that ball, but an unspeficied Ball Set/Dubious Curve means anything goes, and you should think about what you want to do for oki.

Combo List

Damage values are listed on Sol, unless otherwise specific -- mostly in cases where the combo in question does not work on him.

Damage values listed for combos with interchangeable/optional combo parts assume the highest damage variation unless otherwise stated.

Beginner Combos

Below are the most basic and essential Venom combos. These combos work on (nearly) any opponent, and are very versatile, and most importantly, uphold his okizeme, which is where Venom will earn most of his damage, pressure, and corner carry.

Combo Position Damage Tension Works On Difficulty Notes
(2K) > c.S(2) > 2S > 2D(2) > xSet Everywhere 71 ~11 Everyone* Very Easy Any sort of gatling into a knockdown; damage is unimportant because this establishes oki.

2D(2) will not connect on Chipp in most situations; cancel 2D(1).

(2K) > c.S(2) > 2S > 5H > xDBC Everywhere 94 ~15 Everyone Very Easy 5H's stagger is required to combo into Dubious Curve on grounded normal hit.

Core B&Bs

This series of combos work on more or less the entire cast, and provides a good blend of damage, corner carry, and oki, with several variants providing different levels of ease and stability.

Combo Position Damage Tension Works On Difficulty Notes
(2K) > c.S(3) > 6K > xDBC > xSet Everywhere 80 ~12 Everyone* Very Easy Basically the bare minimum. Grants one charged ball and one normal ball.

Delay 6K > Dubious Curve on ABA specifically; fastest timing will OTG her.

(2K) > c.S(3) > 6K > sCR > Dash 6K > xDBC > xSet Everywhere 113 ~18 Everyone Easy Stronger core B&B combo, stable and better in every way. Be sure to learn c.S(3) > 6K > sCR.

Can omit the dash if you're facing right into the corner.

(2K) > c.S(3) > 6K > sCR > Dash 6K > h~dSet > Microdash > f.S > xDBC > xSet Everywhere 137 ~20 Everyone Hard Slightly more unstable on certain characters with high mid-combo hurtboxes, but is basically universal. Optimal.
(2K) > c.S(3) > 6K > sCR > Dash 6K > h~dSet > Dash f.S > FB DHM Everywhere 148 ~-5 Everyone Hard Guarantees a knockdown off of iffy spacings, missed dashes, or situations/characters where you know Dubious Curve will whiff.
(2K) > c.S(3) > 6K > [sDBC > 2S]x2-3 > xDBC > xSet Everywhere 145 ~17 Everyone Medium The legendary Dubious Curve loop!

Damage listed for two-rep version.

Specialized Routes

These combos only work on certain members of the cast, or are reliant on specific spacings/scalings, but offer some unique advantages, like allowing for a three-ball setup.

Combo Position Damage Tension Works On Difficulty Notes
(2K) > c.S(3) > 6K > xSet* > Dash 6P > xDBC > xSet Everywhere 83 x Everyone Medium First set needs to be out of the way of dash 6P; P, K, S, D sets are the easiest to work with.

Grants a three-ball formation.

(2K) > c.S(3) > xDBC > sSet > 2S > xDBC > xSet Corner* 110 (KY) x Everyone* Medium-Hard Readily works on large/heavy/low characters, but requires high gravity scaling before the c.S(3) launch on lighter and smaller characters.

c.S(3) > Immediate xDBC: AB, JO, JU, KY, PO, RO, TE, ZA
c.S(3) > Delayed xDBC: Above + AN, AX, BR, CH, ED, FA, IN, JA, KL, MA, SL, HOS, VE,
Needs high scaling for c.S(3) > xDBC: Above + BA, DI, MI, SO,

Works midscreen on certain characters, but is universal in the corner any time c.S > xDBC works.

Grants a three-ball formation.

Anti-Air & Air-to-Air Combos

These combos are relevant to hits on airborne opponents.

Combo Position Damage Tension Works On Difficulty Notes
AA 6P > xDBC Everywhere 54 x Everyone Very Easy Basically the bare minimum to keep someone off you. Depending on the character, will not work from very far 6P hits.
AA 6P > xDHM Everywhere 64/~73/~48 x Everyone Very Easy sDHM will reset to fullscreen, hDHM will lead to a nearby tech, FB DHM will lead to a knockdown.
AA 6P > c.S(1) > 6H Everywhere 74 x Everyone Very Easy Basic anti-air conversion into a knockdown.
AA 5P/6P > c.S(1) > 6K > sCR > Dash 6K > xDBC Everywhere 144 - See Notes x Everyone Medium Depending on the hit depth, spacing, and character, you can go for basically any of the B&B combos, from the simplest to most optimal hits.

Also works off anti-air c.S, though it doesn't have strong anti-air properties like 6P does.

AA 6P > c.S(1) > j.KS > dj.SH Everywhere 94 x Everyone Easy The exact air string you use can vary, but this is a good, basic jump confirm from an anti-air that will knock down.
AA CH 2H(1) > sCR > Dash 6K > h~dSet > f.S > hDHM Midscreen 165 (IN) x Everyone Medium 2H is an extremely niche anti-air, but effective against things like Baiken j.S and I-No's dives.

Very limited conversions on non-CH or both hits of 2H; go directly into xDHM.

j.PPS > dj.SH Everywhere 77 x Everyone Very Easy-Easy Basic air-to-air for a knockdown. Any string works, just route into j.H.

Be aware that not all characters get hit by j.H the same, however, every character will get hit you are slightly above them, so prioritize that spacing.

j.PSH > FB MS > Airdash > j.H Everywhere 107 x Everyone Medium-Hard FB MS can be used to floorbounce airborne characters for extension or combo stabilization; you can use your air actions afterwards to pursue more damage, a knockdown, or both.

This specific conversion is not hard, but awareness of these types of conversions is, broadly, difficult.

Force Break Mad Struggle

Force Break Mad Struggle is the ultimate can opener, boasting 14f of startup and a massive launch on hit. It's the only move of its type in Venom's arsenal, so be familiar with the conversions possible from it.

Combo Position Damage Tension Works On Difficulty Notes
FB MS > Dash c.S(1/2) > 6K > sCR > Dash 6K > h~dSet > f.S > xDBC > xSet Everywhere 145 x Everyone Hard Simple B&B route.

Lower damage than a DBC loop conversion, but still does good damage and rebuilds far less burst.

If the landing c.S > 6K > sCR is too hard or feels unstable, go for c.S > 6K > xDBC

FB MS > Airdash > Whiff j.H > Land c.S(1/2) > 6K > sCR > Dash 6K > xDBC > xSet Midscreen 138 x Everyone Hard Side switch route. Only works from lower FB MS hits.

If the landing c.S > 6K > sCR is too hard or feels unstable, go for c.S > 6K > xDBC

FB MS > (Dash) 6P > [sDBC > 2S]x2-3 > xDBC > xSet Corner 170 x Everyone Medium Very basic Dubious Curve loop. Pretty extraordinary setup-less damage for Venom.

Damage listed for three-rep version.

Counterhit Combos

Venom generally lacks notable counterhit options. However, there are a few that are important to know, however niche.

Combo Position Damage Tension Works On Difficulty Notes
CH pDBC > s~dSet > 2S > hDHM Everywhere 148 x Everyone Easy CH DBC causes a substantial floorslide, which normally requires an air hit.

Lots of pickups are possible, and will depend on which DBC you hit with; this is just one example.

CH pDBC > sSet > 2S > [sDBC > 2S]x2 > xDBC > xSet Corner 184 x Everyone Medium Example of using CH DBC's enhanced floorslide to begin a high-damage DBC loop.
RISC CH FB MS(2)* > j.k~dSet > Land c.S(1) > 6K > s~dSet > 6H > DL xDBC > xSet Corner 240 x Everyone Medium Requires the guard bar to be 3/4 full or greater for the 2nd hit of FB MS to CH.

Delay the cancel on the 6H such that it occurs after the ball hit.

CH sDBC > dSet > 2S > hSA Feint > Dash c.S(1) > 6L > sCR > Dash 6K > h~dSet > Dash f.S > xDBC > xSet Midscreen 264 (KY) x TBD, KY Very Hard Swag. Niche, maximalist, extremely cool CH DBC combo.

This is not a combo that is expected to be in your repertoire, even at a very high level BUT it is emblematic of how creative you can get with CH DBC, and have it be worthwhile.

5D Combos

Venom has access to decent dust combos, as well as quite strong impossible dust combos that will grant corner carry and oki.

Combo Position Damage Tension Works On Difficulty Notes
5D > j.SH > dj.KS > tj.KSD Everywhere 105 x Everyone Very Easy Non-impossible dust; no knockdown.
5D > j.SH > dj.KS > tj.SH Everywhere 102 x Everyone Very Easy Non-impossible dust; knocks down.
5D > FD > j.D > dj hMS > xSet Everywhere 58 x Everyone Easy Simple, reliable, hard knock down.
5D > FD > j.D > Land c.S > 6K > xDBC > xSet Everywhere 89 x Everyone Medium Heavily delay the j.D after the FD.

Basically leads into the B&B, very consistent and reasonably rewarding.

5D > FD > j.D > dj hMS > 66 j.KSHD > Land c.S > j.KS > dj.SH Corner 121 x Everyone Hard Reasonable damage, but very weak oki owing to the j.H knockdown.

Ground Throw

Venom has access to two types of throws:

  • Hit the opponent while still in the ball - they will bounce off the opposite wall and return.
  • Hit the opponent after they pop out of the ball - will behave like a normal air hit.
Combo Position Damage Tension Works On Difficulty Notes
Throw > c.S(1) > hSet > c.S(1) > 6K > xDBC > xSet Midscreen 63 x Everyone Easy hSet > sDBC > kSet grants an extremely strong formation.

Add a 5P before the second c.S for stability on heavy/low characters and burst safety.

Hit them while they're in the ball.

Throw > Dash c.S(1) > 6K > sCR > Dash 6K > h~dSet > Dash f.S > xDBC > xSet Everywhere 97 x Everyone Hard B&B route off of throw, solid blend of corner carry, oki, and damage.

Hit them after they come out of the ball.

Throw > (Dash) 6P > xDBC > xSet Midscreen 61 x Everyone Very Easy Deeper dashes are possible on heavier and larger characters, generally.

Hit them after they come out of the ball.

Throw > (Dash) 6P > xDBC > sSet > 2S > xDBC > sSet Corner 89 x Everyone Medium Enhanced three-ball formation from in the corner.

Hit them after they come out of the ball.

Air Throw

Venom's air throw conversions are dependent on his height, and to some extent, the hurtbox of the character being thrown. Air throw combos here will be ordered by approximate height.

Combo Position Damage Tension Works On Difficulty Notes
Ground-level air throw > c.S(1) > hSet > c.S(1) > 6K > xDBC > xSet Midscreen 60 x Everyone Easy Mirror of the grounded three-ball throw setup.

Hit them while they're in the ball.

Ground-level air throw > Dash c.S(1) > 6K > sCR > Dash 6K > h~dSet > Dash f.S > xDBC > xSet Everywhere 97 x Everyone Medium Mirror of the grounded throw B&B sequence.

Hit them after they come out of the ball.

Chest-level air throw > 6K > xDBC > xSet Everywhere 61 x Everyone Very Easy Simple oki setup.

Hit them after they come out of the ball.

Chest-level air throw > 6K > hSet > 6K > xSet > xSet Everywhere 49 x Everyone Very Easy The second 6K will knock down, granting a three-ball setup or a highly advantaged two-ball setup if you omit the last Set.

Hit them after they come out of the ball.

Character-height air throw > j.PS > dj.SH Everywhere 67 x Everyone Very Easy As you get higher, grounded sequences become impossible.

Hit them after they come out of the ball.

Further than character-height air throw > sj.PSH Everywhere 61 x Everyone Easy Exact string may vary.

Hit them after they come out of the ball.

Air throw FRC > j.D > Land c.S(1) > 6K > sCR > 6K > xDBC > xSet Everywhere 88 x Everyone Hard Depending on your distance to the corner, may require anything from a slight walk back to a full dash to catch them with c.S.

Can do shorter sequences, like land c.S > 6K > xDBC > xSet as well.

Hit them while they're in the ball.

Combo Theory

What Each Moves Does & Combo Structure

Where Venom's Damage Comes From

Trading Meter for Damage

Enders & Oki

Damage Comparison on Mixups

Using Venom's midscreen B&B as a 'control,' this table will show what kind of damage you can expect from different starters. Note that this does not mean that you should only pursue the most damaging starters; they all have a place, and should all be represented to build a holistic mixup game.

Starter Combo Body Damage
5K > c.S(3)
(90% prorate; control for an opening hit that's not a mixup option)
... > 6K > sCR > 6K > h~dSet > f.S > xDBC > xSet 113
2K > c.S(3)
(Low, 70% prorate)
87
TK sMS(2) > c.S(3)
(Overhead)
127
2D(1) > sSA FRC > c.S(1)
(Low, 25 Tension)
158
FB MS > c.S(1)
(Overhead, 25 Tension, 90% prorate, 2 hits)
145
Throw > c.S(1)
(Non-strike, 50% prorate, 7 hits)
97

There are a few key conclusions we can draw from this -

  • Using meter to skip the full hit count of c.S(3) keeps damage high, by avoiding spending guard bar on just getting the opponent airborne
  • With meter, every mixup option becomes roughly evenly threatening due to their similar and high damage
  • Even low damage options are highly valuable, because their okizeme is identical to the stronger options


Video Examples