[CS2] Rachel vs. Noel

[Jason D.]

1) In this timecode Rachel attempts frog oki and gets thrown out of :<

On a side note, this throw really shouldn't have happened. George was summoned late. Always remember, if you hit Noel with 3C, IT WILL ONLY HIT HER TWICE. The third hit will always whiff. And this happens, obviously, because Noel was meant to be hated.

[gli]

Yeah it was late :S

The autopilot on my part is a valid point. My option select excuse is that it's netplay :P

I guess it shows more 3C stuff though.

[Kuuhaku]

Pretty much any meaty attack forces Noel to block on wake up since she doesn't have a frame 1 invuln move besides her super.

No. Meaty attacks that don't hit high enough get shit on by 2D which is lower body invulnerable on frame 1. Hence trying to do 2A oki is a bad idea (meaning 2A oki after j.2C is actually not safe). 4D is also invulnerable above the knees from frame 1 which shuts down a lot of other meaty options and 5D is head and body invulnerable on frame 3.

This is really the problem when trying to summon oki Noel. If 2D didn't have this property, then meaty 2A after summon should shut down D mash. I still have to try and see if 5A meaty after summon will shut down D mash (I think it'll lose to 4D though). 5B after knock down into summon is not really meaty (it will not meaty on frame 1) and Noel's 5D is head and body invulnerable on frame 3. So even if you do 5B which is the safest option after summon... you will get 5Ded.

So you're kind of forced to guess whether Noel will mash 2D or 5D (5B will shut down 2D and 5A/2A will shut down 5D). The only problem with this guessing game is if you land an attack your choices are very butt compared to Noel's 4-6k+ damage. Her risk v. reward scenario if you summon on knock down is actually better than yours if you try to go for oki after summon.

So there's pretty much no reason for her to not mash unless you're about to kill her.

5B with no summon is the best oki option in this match up IMO because 5B is one of Rachel's best starters and if Noel blocks, all your pressure starts from 5B. Also, as a meaty it will shut down all D mash options and I think it's the only one of Rachel's normals that does this (the only other maybe would be 5A). The way other characters shut down D mash is by doing a meaty with a normal that hits everything. Rachel does not have this outside of 5B (if it weren't for 5B, she wouldn't have a real answer to D mash). 5B will actually be meaty after 3C knockdown so it is 5D safe, it hits low enough to stuff 4D and it hits high enough so it'll shut down 2D. So it is 100% D mash safe.

To expand a bit on Gli's list of other meaty options:

2A- 2D beats it

5A- Will possibly lose to 4D (I actually haven't tested this yet)

2B- 2D beats it

6A- will beat 2D, but will lose to 4D

6B- will probably lose to 4D

6C- will probably get 4Ded

5C- probably 4Ded and she blocks, you're now at the end of your pressure. All you can do is 5CC cannon or 3C

5CC- will hit everything, but is also the end of your pressure.

2C- she can block and then kill you

3C- 2D beats it

4B- hard to make it meaty because of how slow it is and you'll probably get 4Ded out of it

So... yeah. If you're going summon after knockdown, you'd better be very brave or hope Noel guesses wrong every time.

[kotokot]

meaty throw will beat all except 4d? haven't played with noels much.

[Kuuhaku]

meaty throw will beat all except 4d? haven't played with noels much.

I think it should beat 4D too, but doing throw after knock down is kind of sad. And if she didn't mash D and techs, that's the end of your pressure (and you lose your summon).

Oh. You can also 3C pumpkin and wind it while blocking... but you kind of still have to guess 2D or 4D (unless you get some kind of funky angle that hits both... I tried 2D and 3D and it didn't work). Plus if it fails (you miss and have to block D) it's also the end of your pressure.

The biggest problem from this kind of scenario in my opinion is Noel's damage from D mash. It'd still be kind of sad if you're the one who has to guess after getting knockdown, but it's even more sad that her reward is way bigger than yours when you're the one going for oki.

It's actually very similar to being in a Rachel mirror and Rachel mashing cat chair. The only thing is you can meaty cat chair with 5A/2A and if you block, it ends the other Rachel's pressure and you can kill her for it. If you block Noel's D mash, you can't punish her for it and she gets to start her pressure from there. Noel also gets way more damage from drive mash than cat chair mash.

So... yeah. Best way to go about this match up is corner carry her and kill her there. Noel actually can't do much about 5CC frog oki other than block frog and attempt to Counter Assault.

[Sakaku]

How do you guys feel about using 5B over 2A as the main poke in the MU?

5B beats Noel's 2A clean, maybe 5B too.

I know that a whiffed 5B can be punished somewhat easy, but Rachel won't be in a crouching state where Noel's only option in starting a combo lies. As long as she doesn't go for 6A that is.

[Tari]

5B catches Noel's drives, so it's at least one of the go-to moves in this matchup.

[Kronikhall]

poking with 2a in this match up is just begging to be 2d'd.

also midscreen oki on her is...questionable.

[Tari]

I actually still want to try the 2A > 6CD blockstring against D-happy Noels. It sounds really weird to me, but theoretically it would work. It's a 2 frame gap, and the spin beats all drives.

[Herbal Grey]

5B loses to noel's 4d, so i always think twice before using it. also, i'm not positive, but i'm pretty sure if they j.4d (i think that's the input, the whirly air cross-up), they'll get a FC. i have a LOT of success with winded 6c in this matchup, especially because noel in the corner trying to play defense is lolzy as ****.

[Sakaku]

I have yet to face a Noel who uses 4D as a poke lol. 4D loses to our 5B if we meaty it, but we know that already~

j.4D nets Noel a FC, and at least 6k in the corner thanks to Rachel's hitbox. You can easily react with 2C tough, which nets us about the same damage with 50 heat. It's also worth mentioning that you can grab her before j.4D hits. And don't forget that it hits low too.

[Tari]

5B beats 4D cleanly, though? It hits all the way to the floor, and 4D is only above-the-knees invuln.

And if they're jumping out for j.4D on wakeup, that means you're doing 5B way too late.