[CPEX] Relius Clover Gameplay Discussion

[Myoro]

Changes are givin' me indigestion.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWMX8_ZOSaI

[LaziestNameEver]

Is 3C still not jump cancellable? I didn't really get what that 3C > OD > 3C combo was trying to show.

[NecroTheReaper]

It had nothin to do with 3C. In OD right now, 236C followups arent buffed. I think thats what they were trying to say is they are now.

For now, just assume 3C change is real though, just to avoid disappointment. They didnt show us it being jump cancelled or not junp cancelled.

[Myoro]

2C is still jump cancel and j.B is still low level, so I'd assume 3C stayed the same as inn the loke.

 

What's interesting to me is that we have sandwiches now. Not only did 214B cause "Slow Retreat State" on Ignis, but if you look closely OD Tus did as well after a sucsessful back attack.

 

OD Zein has increased hitstun for midscreen and tossback combos.

 

What in the everlovin' name of god do we do with sandwiches? Is this what pressure is now? Can people backdash through Ignis when she's like this?

 

OD vinum looks to have 650-ish more min damage, Which should be nice for those 100HT combos

 

Zein has a really good base damage. (236C~214A does 1.4K, 236C~214C does 1.7K) Probably good to use early on. Wall bound combos into 41236B and probably 5A+B and Tkj.236C in the corner.

 

Zein costs 1K IG and looks to have the same, if not slightly better P2 as ~214A.

 

I predict, based on a gut feeling, the addition of Zein will make our corner combos gain 300-700 damage on average.

[NecroTheReaper]

300-700 Damage is a ton considering our average damage atm is between 3.5-4.5k. As I said in the 2.0 change thread, barrier will now be completely useless against Rel since he can now sandwhich. I can only imagine the crossup gimmicks with this. You do bring up a good point as to if ignis actually occupies the space her sprite is in though.

Also, I don't think the OD change isnt directed specifically toward Zein. Google translate just said ignis attacks, so I assume Haas and Naidas are also affected in OD.

As far as our jump cancels go, the biggest thing this does is get rid of 3C>j.D safejump and empty jump low mixup. Its also gonna screw with our full screen carry combos -_-

[Myoro]

Note that we can still do 5B>3C>665B>2C>6C>41236B>665B>5C(2)>sj>j.B>j.C>j.236C~j.214B>Airdash, even from max range 3C which does the practically the same damage and carry as out old Bnb if not more with the same IG cost.

 

Yeah our 2C>6C>214C combos are busted because we cant land a 2C close enough.

 

Well, actually... I wonder if 5B>3C>41236B+D>662C>6C>214C or 5B>3C>5A+B>6D>(5A+B hits)>662C6C>214C might work as a supplementary route.

 

I wonder how strong sandwich tus will be.

 

I wonder how we're gonna do cross-up shinanigans with no jump cancels... =/

[NecroTheReaper]

Dude. Led ley mixup will be legit crossups xD but yeah, until we know what about our moves changed, we wont know whats good or bad. Relius wasnt really a character that "needed" anything, he was fine as is.

[Myoro]

So OD Zein costs a fortune. I don't know if there's summoning cost, but there shouldn't be right?

 

I wonder if 214D and 236D are buffed in OD. along with ~214A/B...

 

I wonder if ~214A/B will have summon costs in OD...

 

EDIT!!: Actually it looks like all of our Ignis specials have their summon costs in OD, summon or not. That's really bad.

[Myoro]

Also if you look at the Arakune Change log and watch bang's HUD, Barrier drains MUCH quicker. We can run 5A+B in our "mix-up" now.

[NecroTheReaper]

Tbh, alot of our OD combos only use like 2 or 3 ignis moves, and unless you're ending in DD, you'll usually get some ignis back with the regen. Though yeah, it is kinda stupid that our OD INCREASES our resource usage.

So. Vinum gets 1k minimum damage in OD roughly. Right now it gives 350. OD vinum also restands. This is a really happy change for me. Dunno if this makes it a better reversal or not, but goin for 3.5k resets or an unburstable 2.1k, either sounds great. We wont have to wait too long before it gets its arcade debut though, so I guess we just have to wait it out for all the sneaky changes they mightve done

[RaitoninguSigma]

wow if 3C isnt jump cancellable now I'd cry in the corner ...

I dont see the use of Ignis' new move outside of OD and corner.

Why would you end with it? You'd lose wakeup games ...

 

I dont know how to feel about the sandwiching yet. It seems like the devs exchanged our 3C jump cancel pressure with this new tool.

I don't want Relius to be a sandwich guy like Carl

[Myoro]

Well, Now's a good time to get down solo combos (or 6B confirms) if you haven't. They look to be applicable in 2.0 and it looks like were gonna need a crapton of IG for pressure and Mix-up.

 

If Sandwich stuff is our new pressure, then we're gonna need a lot of IG. 15% at least to start it up with 214B and 13~20% for each continue

 

Ada sandwiches work because she's a solid object which stops backdashes from working, Carl can dash through Ada and the enemy for mix-up, and their 6D/2D/8D/everything 'cept Brio confirms into stuff.

 

With our 6D's lack of hitbox near Ignis, I can see this blowing up easy. Also consider that with 6D>microdash we've never really had much trouble keeping on the opponent, so we never needed to sandwich them. (Though we did have jump cancel then as well which saved us against barrier. I suppose as Necro astutely surmised it will help us against that.)

 

This all is kinda perturbing

 

Oh and, uh. We can still get knockdown and safejump off of 4D in the corner. So don't worry too much about that.

[NecroTheReaper]

Thing about sandwhiching is that you don't -have- to do it. I mean, I rarely use 214B as it is. What I'm curious about is if this will apply from fullscreen, cuz now we got ignis stalkin them from behind.

[Myoro]

So the way I see it, our viability in 2.0 may hinge on 2C being jump cancelable on block.

 

If it is, we have pressure, 50/50s, tasty sandwich cross-ups, a move with protection against GCOD, The worlds BEST anti air (Barring Koko), and set-ups fo' days.

 

If not, well, I feel like things might get a lil' more difficult unless somebody gets creative and something really really cool is discovered. (Which considering our character, and my collegues, you guys, has a distinct chance of happening.)

 

Edit, I guess if we stagger, we can Ley GCOD on anyone but Tager and maybe Bullet. But 2C jump cancel would keep us worry free of GCOD>Command Grapple Super if we staggered it.

 

2 day later edit to avoid double posting edit: Do you know how much I'd pay for a third version of Id Lauger?

[Myoro]

A couple things I noticed when watching the Mori matches in the vid thread.

 

Ignis' Gray regen (From death) looks very weird. Seems faster somehow. May just start Regening quicker or something Might compare it later when I have access to my PS3.

 

5B>6D>665B loop didn't bring Rel as close as it usually does. I don't know if it was executed strangely, but if it wasn't it ether means 5B got more pushback or has more Recovery. 6D looks perfect like it always does.

 

I think OD214A's speed/range looks different.

 

So I was thinking of sandwich confirms and what they might do for us, and I think a  3C>6D>2C>6C>214C might work since it seems like Ignis will push the opponent right around the area 2C needs for a 6C>Tus to work. Someone with impeccable timing might be able to test this using Training mode and 214B... Again provided there's no impeding stealth changes.

[Myoro]

Ignis seems like like less of a crutch and at the same time, even more important. I'm getting more of a "two character" vibe like with Carl. Honestly ignis always felt more like a persona than a puppet, but now its like relius absolutely needs her to do anything at all from anywhere. At least, that's how I feel about it.

He seems a bit miffed at the nerfs honestly. Still has very solid offense I bet even after losing 3c, but mixup will be worse. Not nonexistent, but definitely worse. More decisions will need to be better thought out in general. He isn't alone either, pretty much every character who has a meter for drive got a nerf to emphasize the weaknesses of not having a drive. He could have gotten the hazama treatment.

Restand vinum is a decent quirk, I could imagine crossup unblockables to screw with those 623 dp inputs. Kagura and kokonoe should be immune to these unblockables right?

I can't imagine relius even wiping his ass without ignis there anymore. He should invest in some upgraded batteries for when she breaks down.

 

 

 

Relius still is able to do well on his lonesome, now it just requires meter or a counterhit 3C.

 

On counterhit 3C he can do CH3C>recover>665C(2)>2C>6C>41236B>665B>5C>sj>j.B>j.C>j.236C~j214B

or

CH3C>summon/desummon>665C>etc

 

With meter we can Rapid Lauger for an instant double rainbow of damage and combo.

 

On airhit we just confirm into 2C and get payed.

 

Relius ground confirms will require Ignis to some capacity. (midscreen she needs to be out, in the corner she needs to be alive and with 2K+ health preferably.)

 

Honestly, unless you were a rockstar with those 6B confirms nothing's changed for you.

 

As Necro said 2C is jump cancelable so we can still cycle pressure. The only caviot there is  2C doesn't hit low, but other than that, the actual high low part of our mix-up is unharmed. 2GB says we might even be able to get fuzzies midscreen with Ignis sandwiches. Koko's Teleport will no longer be frame 1, and to deal with Kagura you do 214D+ley or 2B. Ether he gets unblockabled or he whiffs hilariously for great justice.

 

 

• Relius dash speed faster?

• Pincer system added

  • (Description of what a pincer looks like.)

• 6B:

  • Head invincibility added

  • Gatling removed

  • Doesn’t float on ground hit

  • Startup slowed (i.e., longer startup)

  • Slower than 5C and 2C, faster than Lauger. ~13-15f

• 3C:

  • Can’t jump cancel

  • Reduced recovery?

• 2C:

  • Jump cancel possible

  • Fatal counter removed

  • Blowback on counterhit is the same

  • (something about being able to follow up after jc > stuff > landing?)

• j.B

  • Top part of [attack] hitbox removed

  • Generally, there is no hitbox near the shoulder

  • Lower attack level

• 2D

  • Pulls the opponent towards the ground on air hit

  • Not a hard knockdown (for above situation?)

  • SMP added?

• 4D

  • OD version removed

• Val Lanto

  • Starts up faster

  • Since it connects when summoned after 5B, startup is ~17f?

  • Attack level increase?

  • Probably at least even on block

  • (Hard?) knockdown on hit.

  • (Relius’s recovery increased on 214 series? Probably same [recovery length] as [Val] Tus ?)

  • [Can] transition into pincer when blocked at close range.

• Val Lyra

  • Relius recovery increased

  • Transitions into pincer state after attack

  • Float lowered on OD version

• Val Tus

  • Distance the same as for BBCSE, “searches” from within that distance (I’m guessing that means the attacks come out when it encounters the opponent, rather than going a fixed distance first.)

  • OD version:

    • Also floats on ground hit.

    • P2 changed 92 -> 94

• Id Haas

  • Decreased follow-up time

  • Doesn’t combo into [Gad] Leis and CT

  • OD version added

  • OD version:

    • Roughly the same as Lanto

    • Uses 3000 gauge

• Id Naiads

  • OD version added

  • Ground Naiads transitions to pincer

  • OD version:

    • [ground] bounces akin to unlimited version, can combo after

    • Uses 3000 gauge

• Req Vinum

  • OD version added

  • OD version

    • Forces ground crouch

    • 500 minimum damage

• Vol Tedo

  • Increased recovery on hit?

  • Shortened animation

• Duo Bios

  • More lenient P2 (i.e. higher P2?)

  • (Something about direction of first hit for OD version)

Many thanks to Kikirin for translated list!!

 

More dash speed is tremendous. Being quicker means less need for lane changing on approach, which will boost the effectiveness of our approach greatly. Also faster dash means deadlier poke game, we'll catch more and be able to position better.

 

I've already given my thoughts on the pincer system, but faster Lanto start-up probably means that it's our go to for close pincers. Faster Lanto also means (5B>3C>214A>pick-up>2C>stuff) may work if you've pinced the opponent. That of course depends on how bad the recovery truly is and how air hit lanto will affect the opponent.

 

6B is interesting, I suspected something was fishy when I saw a Jpn Rel use 6B as an anti air, and it looks as if my suspicions were confirmed. I'd like to know the scope of its head invuln, as well as if any of its other features have been changed.

 

For 3C I'm REALLY wondering how much recovery it dropped. because depending on that it could still be really strong. Could proper spacing make a 3C safe even? This will help emmensly with 5B>2B>6A/3C>6D>665B strings, because we'll be able to dash earlier (also our dash is faster which will let us keep on top of them.) This will also be amazing for my proposed combo route, 5B>2C>3C>6D>665B>2C>6C>41236B>665B>5C(2)>sj>j.B>j.C>j.236C~j.214B. Te 3C>6D>665B will be easier to link with less recovery. Depending on how much recovery we lost we might be able to do 665C(2)>2C>6C>41236B or 662C>6C>214C. Also Recovery makes 3C oki better <3

 

As it stands j.B seems like the biggest irredeemable nerf to date. I don't think anything good comes from this at first glance, although when Terumi's 5C lost a level it gave him loops. I have many questions about it, questions regarding dropped j.B>j.C gatlings later on in the combo, how j.B operates on counter-hit, whether j.B will still be albe to air to air, whether j.B still goes into j.236C. From the notes it still seems to have it's cross-up hitbox, but because it leveled down it lost hit-stun right? That means our cross-ups from j.B are gonna be tight to do at best.

 

2D, by far the most interesting change to read ^_^". Seems like it got the 1.1 Leis treatment in that it pulls down. I might consider using it now if that's true. 2D already had SMP, so maybe that meant it got removed? Not like anyone would plug 4K+ IG into a combo anyway, unless it screen carried,  did 6K, or something neat.

 

4D OD version being removed is sad for midscreen but good for corner. OD 4D took a really long time which ran OD's clock hard, often robbing us of OD 632146D.

 

Val Tus, I actually think this is a buff. I never really used Tus outside that range in the first place. I think OD Tus may be worse than Regular Tus because of the float on ground hit only serving to launch the opponent away from you if you use it raw. Nice P2 buff tho.

 

Val Lyra, Improved I'd say. Dash speed for Relius might let him get in despite the enhanced recovery, and then there's the ever present threat of Sandwich Girl Ignis afterword. In OD, do they want to force us to use the Tus Rekka with this float thing?

 

Id Haas, Not good at all. reduced untech means harder corner transitions. 5B>3C>236C~214A>dash>5B pick-ups are going to have effectiveness reduced by this untech nerf and improved by our dash speed.  OD Haas sounds pretty fantastic, but it costs 3K IG which is silly.

 

Id Naiads: Pincer transition on ground Naiads? Heck yes probably our main way of getting pince state. OD version is very important. It could mean a Huge Damage potential boost midscreen. Imagine our normal BnB with an OD mixed in somewhere and an OD Vol Tedo as the kicker at the end. Even with uncreative BS I can see this netting us 4.7K off any midscreen 5B confirm.

 

Vinum is good. Hope we still have glitches.

 

Tedo has more recovery on hit? Not the best thing, but hardly the worst. We only really use it to Rapid or kill anyway. (How short are they gonna make it before they stop ;A;)

 

Duo Bios. Heck yes. My day to shine has come! I'm gonna have to recreate my midscreen confirm, but I probably should have done that eons ago.

[The Puppeter]

This is why I love you man .. you're awesome thanks for the great work <3!

[The Puppeter]

I'm very happy that the 6B is anti-air now but if I hit someone counter with it .. what combo I can do ?

[TD]

2c 6c gad leis or 5b 5c air combo. Should be the same as old launcher 6b on ch.

[The Puppeter]

No we cant do 2c 6c after counter anti air 6B because gatling removed from 6B

I'm not sure though

[skd]

if im coming to the right conclusions, jB attack level nerf also means less blockstun, which means fuzzy is only possible on normal guard (with much stricter timing), and not instant block or instant barrier.

 

if you cant connect the dots, stricter timing for fuzzy = more predictable IB window, IB = no fuzzy.

[SoWL]

Well damn, I was translating that Relius article as requested in the general subforum, only to find it translated over here. You better repost that over there

[Kikirin]

Well damn, I was translating that Relius article as requested in the general subforum, only to find it translated over here. You better repost that over there

 

It isn't quite the full article (only ~half of the first of the two), and having another pair of eyes on it would be most helpful. If it isn't too much trouble, please feel free to double-check / continue! I'm sure everyone would be interested in the combo parts and insights regarding them. 

[SoWL]

Don't see any major mistakes in the changelog translation, the Bios changes might mean that the gaps are larger between the hits unless it's the OD version, but I had my doubts about that one, too. I might translate the rest of the article later, even though I only wanted to translate the changelog.

[NecroTheReaper]

6B ground hit combos are dead, 3C is a necessary move if you dont want to just do a simple confirm into 2k. As far as i know though, 6B is still jump cancellable on hit, and on CH you could always do 6B>5B. I never actually used the 6B>5C gatling unless by mistake anyway.

Fuzzies taking a major hit is bad, but saying we couldn't mixup without fuzzies would be lol. All of our pressure options are still there, even if 2C us 2f slower than 3C (this does mean that 2B>2C can be dp'd on IB though). 3C getting faster recovery I hope means its no more than -5, but its questionable status leads me to believe its either the same or like 2-3f faster. Maybe 3C>41236B gives us more fatals, no clue