[CP1.1] Valkenhayn Gameplay Discussion

[DJ_Blactricity]

It doesnt have the same invul as wolf 4D. I tested it on ragna's 5C>2D which we can backdash after ibing 5C. My bad for not checking the frame data. I usually just look at whatever's on the character page where human 4D isn't listed

[Dreize]

Yes, it doesn't have any invul.

[Magaki]

Yeah. Human 4D is just used for spacing purpose. For example, h4D>w66D got a really interesting trajectory.

Sadly, it's only useful in very specific matchups making it something you mostly do by mistake.

[Diveman]

What do you guys think of the Valk changes in CP 1.1? is it the wj.A nerf really that harsh?

[Dreize]

Just take a look at the comments that were made in the CP Valkenhayn 1.1 changelog thread.

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?18932-CP-v1-1-Valkenhayn-Changes-and-Discussion

Covers just about everything.

[RedTag14]

Not sure where to post this but obligatory post congratulating Kiba, Wolf Forum God, for his win at Final Round! All of your matches need to go to the vid section so we can study you and begin worship. x)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kriegdrache]

Gratz Kiba, you da bess!

[Errol]

Not sure where to post this but obligatory post congratulating Kiba, Wolf Forum God, for his win at Final Round! All of your matches need to go to the vid section so we can study you and begin worship. x)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Right here

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?19055-Kiba-Shrine-Under-Construction

[Dreize]

I was nervous as heck when you had to fight Amane and Litchi.

Glad you pulled through, and congrats!

[Kiba]

Thanks guys. I was nervous in that tournament and I have analysed where I've gone wrong and stuff. Moving on to more relevant things...

 

Ryu and Jasu have been talking about Valk combos in the patch on twitter:

 

w[5A > 5C > 236A > 5D] > 2C > 6B > 2C > 236A > tk.214B > 6C > 3C > 236B [3006 DMG]

w[5A > 5B > 5C > 236A > 3C > 236C > 236A > 2C > tk.214B > 6C > 3C > 236B [2794 DMG]

 

w[j.A > 5C > 236B > 2D > j.D] > tk.214B > 6C > 3C > 236B

w[j.A > 5B > 5C > 236A > 236B > j.236B > j.214B] [2293 DMG] 

 

w[5B > 5C > 236A > 2C > 6B > 2C > 236A > 2C > 236C > tk.214B > 6C > 3C [3513 DMG] (I might be wrong with this translation)

 

w[j.C > brjB > 5B > 5C > 236A > 3C > 236C > 2C > 6B > 2C > 236A > 2C > tk.214B > 6C > 3C [3171 DMG]

 

Ryuu also posted some combos involving w5C loops but I'm not too interested in them, sorry.

[Grifter]

Kiba, I just caught up, that was awesome! Must feel so great to have the time you've put in pay off on the big stage.

 

I caught you doing the corner push w[iad.AB > 5B] loop, do you have any notes on who that DOESN'T work on? Same list as iad.BC > 5B?

[Kiba]

Thanks!

 

I'm not sure the combo is character specific and as of now I haven't had trouble using it on a number of characters.

 

Something else I've been meaning to talk about. Since FR I've been playing with different enders.

 

The j.D > w[j.B > j.A > 5B > wj.AAA > j.B > 3D > j.B > jump > j.D > falling j.C] is especially useful against characters with DPs but doesn't work on Mu since she has 1f guard point. I'm sure most of you already know about this but you should definitely use it rather than going for the standard enders. If they DP you should be able to block in time and if not the j.C will hit and you can followup with 3C. If they start to be a little more respectful you can go for any other mixup. The mixup loses to delay techs.

 

Against Bang, I use j.B > j.8B > j.C enders when he has heat and use brjA when he techs. If he uses Ashura or Daifunka you can 4D/7D to dodge it. It can even avoid the grab super. Spaced w5C can work against Ashura I think? but it doesn't work against the other supers and you'll get caught. I believe this ender is also good against Tager and Azrael.

 

Like I said you guys most likely know this but since FR I've kinda changed stuff and I'm just thinking aloud. w5C > RC > w5C is actually good too. LK opened my eyes lol.

[Falco252]

 

I'm not sure the combo is character specific and as of now I haven't had trouble using it on a number of characters.

 

Amane maybe ? I play an Amane often, never managed to land the combo <_< Might be netplay tho (I don't think it's my execution since I can land it with everyone else and dropping it always specificaly on him seems odd to be called execution), and Amane is Amane so I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest.

[Kiba]

It can work on Amane.

 

Example combo: w[j.A > 5B > 5C > 6D > j.D > Delay 5B > IAD j.A > j.B > 5B > IAD j.A > j.B > Slight delay 5B > IAD j.A > j.B. As you noticed there's a few points you'd have to delay stuff otherwise it'll drop.

 

On a side note, I pondered why Suya does 3C > OD and @vcjonakim has managed to help me out. Basically, blocked 3C > OD > 5B > 3C or IOH j.C > 3D > wj.A/wj.B are true blockstrings which can both be combo'd off. It allows for a gapless wolf mixup. It's better to use 6B > OD instead though because the vacuum effect is nice for reeling in opponents to get the IOH j.C. This is pretty good and I'll add it to the strategy guide. This is something that'll work in the patch too so take note!

 

*Added Amane notes in the character specifics in the strategy guide.

[Grifter]

Amane (and Carl) can work but you really need to delay every 5B as long as possible. Is anyone using it against those characters in matches?

 

 

 

Also, I've seen 3C > 1DC suggested here for cancelling out of whiffed sweep. How's that better than 3C > plain 1D/3D? Seems like less trouble for the same wolf meter.

[Stellarcircle5]

So was brainstorming some stuff at work and was thinking, what ways could Valk use meter to create some new mixups. I came home and put some theory into practice and wanted some input. I thought I would take some tech from Jin and see if corner vaccum into IAD crossups would work. I know its 50 meter, but we dont really use meter that much anyway and it would definitely be used sparingly since most people blocking Valk likely wouldnt see something like this coming.. What do you guys think? Would you say this is viable? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkGdlH7dNk0

[Dreize]

Interesting utilization of the 6B vacuum effect.  

[Kiba]

Also, I've seen 3C > 1DC suggested here for cancelling out of whiffed sweep. How's that better than 3C > plain 1D/3D? Seems like less trouble for the same wolf meter.

 

Whiffed sweep? Sorry I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say.

 

 

So was brainstorming some stuff at work and was thinking, what ways could Valk use meter to create some new mixups. I came home and put some theory into practice and wanted some input. I thought I would take some tech from Jin and see if corner vaccum into IAD crossups would work. I know its 50 meter, but we dont really use meter that much anyway and it would definitely be used sparingly since most people blocking Valk likely wouldnt see something like this coming.. What do you guys think? Would you say this is viable? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkGdlH7dNk0

 

I think it's pretty interesting. Viable? If you could mix it in a 3D > 4C wolf brake then I think we'd have something here.

[Grifter]

I can't seem the find the post but I think you had posted that combo ender > oki route of sj.ABC > 3C > 236A and mentioned that if they teched, to cancel 3C into 1DC. I saw it done in a match too so I'm just trying to understand the point of braking out of 1D. Sorry if the answer is obvious and just eludes me. 

[Magaki]

I'm the one who posted it.

After sjABC midscreen, you can do 3C. If you get the hitconfirm because they didn't tech, do 236A. If they emergency teched, do 1DC to meaty.
You have to react to whether or not the 3C will hit. 1DC is easier to do than 3D4C and you will almost always be in range for 1DC.

Obviously, this is by no means easy.

[Kiba]

Hey. I had a great time at EVO, although it doesn't come without its regrets. Anyway thank you guys for your support and I hope I didn't embarras you guys that much, especially against Lich. Nerves are still a problem and I'm working on it.

I've gotta change some information in the matchup threads later. Oh and also, I didn't get to play much of the Japanese players. I only played Spinking's Amane, Tochigin's Azrael and Stunedge. If anyone remembers Tochigin used to play Valk, and he hasn't given up on him. He told me he'll be using him at Arc Revo.

[TeeJay]

Kiba, good job at Evo. Making it to the semifinals is nothing to take likely. 

[killeriori]

Congrats for you 13th place, you do a great job and we wait for your news tech, matchup.

[Kyosuke_]

Valkenhayn safe jump 50/50 alternative:

 

As you should all know, Valkenhayn has an extremely easy way to end any of his corner confirms with a safe jump setup. In case you don't, The common setup is ending your corner combo with an instant wolf jump B, then jump canceling it, landing with a j.c for a safe jump setup. As human mixup is rather limited, you can sacrifice the safe jump part of the setup to do a meterless 50/50 on your way down from the jump cancelled wolf J.b. The concept involves transforming into wolf form a slight distance from the ground then landing with a w.ja for an overhead or empty jump w5c for a low. While the 50/50 part of this setup only works on people who emergency tech, this also stops the opponent from teching away from you as a result. For some reason, landing with a wolf normal puts the opponent in front of Valk while not landing with a wolf normal allows the opponent to roll behind you (Slightly unrelated as there would be no reason for you to land without doing a wolf normal). If the opponent were to roll, as stated as before, they will roll right in front of you, at the mercy of your wolf mixup. If the opponent were to emergency tech, they would have to take your falling meter less (referring to wolf meter) 50/50 while also allowing you to continue pressure/mixup even if the 50/50 was blocked. This is particularly useful for adding mixup variety against charge reversal characters who you've scared into DPing with your previous safe jump setups. This is also useful against Noel, a character who can't do anything about either mixup option without meter for a super as both options can beat her 4D/2D. One of the biggest ideas of this concept is to fool your opponent into thinking you're doing a safe jump setup, an option that doesn't really allow following mixup options. So as stated before, this can really work against a charge reversal character like Kagura as he has no choice but to emergency tech if he wants to use his reversal (assuming you've scared him into not Dping your regular safe jump setup). Still not used to fully wording new concepts like this so please let me know if anything's unclear!

[Magaki]

Please, consider making your text less compact. If you put more space, it will make it much more comfortable for the readers.

Anyway, safe jumps is a subject really common when it comes to okizeme and we have talked about them on a few threads already. So far, the best safe jumps setups are human jC/2B and the six way mixup done with wjB.

There are 3 reasons why wjA and w5C aren't and shouldn't be used as safe jumps at all:
-First is that wjA is now a VS starter and its hitstop isn't that great. Before, it wasn't a great choice but now it's even worse because you have no time at all to hitconfirm your combo. You have to follow it up right away. And if you do that, it completely suppress the meaning of being a safe jump because you won't be able to input your backdash at all. And if you do plan to backdash anyway whether you got a hit or the opponent blocked, you can be punished because of the huge wolf backdash nerf.

-Second is that it's simply not as useful as a safejump jC.
Safejump jC can be done with either wjB ender or 3C enders. With a 3C ender, you got a setup for a perfect safe jump. Simply jump after that and do jB (whiff)>jC as fast as possible. Will beat every reversals in the game.
It must also be mentioned that doing jC/1B as a 50/50 is much safer and easier to hitconfirm. You can also make the jC whiff by doing it late and do 1B afterwards. It pretty much impossible to guess whether or not you will make jC whiff because as mentionned, it's a perfect safe jump.
I would also like to point out that you can also do it with 236B>236B ender midscreen. Usually with 236B>236B>9D>jD>safejump/1B
Which one of the less expensive 50/50 in terms of wolf gauge that we have. It doesn't however beat forward rolls but you can easily punish that by doing 6D instead.

-Third and last reason is that it uses wolf gauge while jC safe jumps don't. And if one would prefer to uses wolf gauge, it's much better to use the 6-way mixup that I explained here.
Here is the important part if you don't feel like reading the whole post:

Dunno if we talked about it here but basically, it's a wolf mixup you can do after a wjB midscreen. You basically do wjB ender>jump cancel which will result in the opponent getting knocked down and you still high in the air. From there, you can use 1D/2D/3D to either do cross-up overhead, cross-up low, cross-up command grab or fake cross-up overhead, fake cross-up low or fake cross-up command grab.
If you do an overhead, you can do 44 with the right timing to OS any reversal.
Basically with wjA air-to-air, it's easier to set. jump>wjA>wjB>jump cancel 6-way mixup.
Or you can just safe jump jC/empty jump 2B. Keep in mind though that you can punish rolls with the 6-way. Not the safe jump midscreen.

Anyway, while it's good to have more options in oki, we got much better choices to go in terms of safejump.
This kind of subject should rather go in the okizeme thread but I honestly need to just compile everything into one single guide one day.


Here's anyway one more 50/50 for you guys that you can add in your game and that's something that you can actually pull off after a 6B on block or hit in the corner.
After a 6B, you can do a cross-up/fake cross-up that is just impossible for the opponent to guess right.
Basically, you do: 6B>9D>jD>(small delay)jB in the corner. Based on when you pressed jD, you will either cross-up or not. Make sure to add a small delay though in order to be able to combo after it unless you don't mind doing 2A afterwards and lowering the damage your combo will do. I recommend doing jB>2B>5B in order to hitconfirm or crouch confirm easier.