Newbies of P4A, unite!

[Zeron_X25]

Man I'm reallllyyy bad at this game and I wanna learn but every time I try to find player matches, there's some guy that destroys me over and over and I can't do anything. But not sure if it's worth it at this point though since U2 is coming out soon I guess I'll play you guys then so feel free to add me.

[OmegaDivider]

Welll

 

I figured I should say something so you all don't think I died or something.

 

I'm taking an extended break until the US (most likely) release of Ultimax since my ps3 barely would have enough space for the JP digital and I don't feel too keen on purchasing it twice so... I'll see you all in a month(ish) time. Hit me up if you wish to chat and what not though :p

[heavymetalmixer]

Welll

 

I figured I should say something so you all don't think I died or something.

 

I'm taking an extended break until the US (most likely) release of Ultimax since my ps3 barely would have enough space for the JP digital and I don't feel too keen on purchasing it twice so... I'll see you all in a month(ish) time. Hit me up if you wish to chat and what not though :p

 

Why don't you just keep playing with this version until the american version of P4U2 goes out? That's what I'm gonna do, there's no way for me to buy P4U2 twice.

[nilcam]

I'm also sticking the the original until the U.S. release of Ultimax. I cannot justify spending the extra money.

[Demi-Fiend]

I rage quit because the other player skipped all of the intro sequence and the match was laggy as hell. I had previously messaged the player explaining that they shouldn't skip that stuff.

 

Oh that's understandable because the intro has something to do about connection right and makes it less laggy?

[AchedSphinx]

Very grateful that hao chi and p4uplayer came to visit last night!

 

Anytime. I don't play very often these days and I think mixedmethods accidentally invited me .

To some people, it's more about win-loss ratios than anything else.

 

I don't run into very many of those types.

Thanks for the matches last night. I should be more familiar with the mechanics and Yukiko's zoning game next time. That was literally my first time playing against a person. I was playing the story mode up until then to see how they continued the story from P4 that I loved so much.

 

eta: I need to buy a microphone again...

Well, Yukiko is pretty tough to play, mostly because you need lots of match-up experience and an understanding of the neutral game (more so because she's a zoning character and you need good reads to win half the time). It will take time but you'll get good with her.

 

It's crucial. I just bought a Rock Candy headset for $20 and it's working quite well. They're widely available at Toys R Us.

 

I think we need to help Fortune with his Yosuke hate. I recommend all players get in some Yosuke practice so we can flood him with Yosuke and eventually win him over.

Hmm, well not sure how crucial a mic is in a fighting game.

 

I find the best way to deal with Yosuke is to air throw his spring step. It's a good way to see if the Yosuke player is good or not. Think of it like a test of sorts.

 

Oh that's understandable because the intro has something to do about connection right and makes it less laggy?

 

People say it allows the game to synchronize the lag so it'll be less laggy. People also say picking Yukiko stage or Mitsuru stage reduces lag.

[nilcam]

Hmm, well not sure how crucial a mic is in a fighting game.

 

Well, we do a lot of critique and information sharing in our training sessions. As such, it's quite useful to improving in the game.

[mixedmethods]

Well, we do a lot of critique and information sharing in our training sessions. As such, it's quite useful to improving in the game.

Speaking of which, remind me to pass on some tips I got from kupo.

And it wasn't an accident p4uplayer. I was definitely amused by your constant IK attempts with Narukami, right through the match end when Shab's DP ate your gold burst.

[AchedSphinx]

Well, we do a lot of critique and information sharing in our training sessions. As such, it's quite useful to improving in the game.

 

I see your point. I often run into bad experiences with mics (such as a guy calling me out and screaming on the mic because I beat him).

Speaking of which, remind me to pass on some tips I got from kupo.

And it wasn't an accident p4uplayer. I was definitely amused by your constant IK attempts with Narukami, right through the match end when Shab's DP ate your gold burst.

 

Well, my Yu is pretty bad, but I still want to learn how to play him. Gotta prepare for P4U2. I also thought it was funny because I want that IK to land somehow.

[Fortune]

Welll

 

I figured I should say something so you all don't think I died or something.

 

I'm taking an extended break until the US (most likely) release of Ultimax since my ps3 barely would have enough space for the JP digital and I don't feel too keen on purchasing it twice so... I'll see you all in a month(ish) time. Hit me up if you wish to chat and what not though :p

Finally!!! He speaks!

 

At the moment we're just learning some Mitsuru/Shabrys tech   

 

Then I started a crusade against our Yosuke players (eg: everyone else except rocker and kupo) 

 

Also lol for 20-20 wins & losses against rocker last night!

[mixedmethods]

Well, my Yu is pretty bad, but I still want to learn how to play him. Gotta prepare for P4U2. I also thought it was funny because I want that IK to land somehow.

I've been slaughtering a glut of Narukamis in ranked lately ... and all of them seem to think that "instant kill = instant win option." I feel like I've blocked and punished more Narukami IKs than usual over the past few days -- we're talking 20-something. That's about all I do. Well, that and axe slam them for failing to hit-confirm their DP super cancel and getting air Ziodyne while I'm on the other side of the screen. The biggest problem with Narukami's IK is that he's grounded, so if he moves his sword and it's not 2B or 5B, you know exactly what's coming and have all the time in the world to block. Shab's works if your opponent spent their burst and you can combo into it... and I understand why Liz players spam hers, with that meter gain -- but seriously, three times in one round? Do you really think I'm that dumb? The epic sadness of her twirling her finger at the vacant counter as you roll behind her and wait to start the punish combo of your choice. Facepalm. Because I'm going to randomly decide to whip out Gatling Gun with your IK up.

Omega loves, loves, loves IKs and sometimes we just goof off with them in the room. Someone needs to find that footage of the dual Akihikos going for IK while simultaneously announcing, "I've been waiting for this moment!"

ETA:

That's pretty dumb considering that those stats are practically fake than and don't prove anything about your skill level.

Yeah, I've fought "high rank" players who've played 27 matches and won 26. Whereas I find ranked to be an easier (and more fun, diverse, and productive) way to play matches, as I can work in training, fight, repeat. I wear my godawful win-loss rate with pride ... and also with the knowledge that I accept match requests from people far beyond my skill level because I want to see if I can take a round, make it a close match, steal a burst, etc.

That and win-loss, ranks, etc. -- I find it deceptive, to a certain extent. I mean, I fought an F- Yosuke but that could have been someone's alt or someone with 3000 player matches, as he was legitimately good. And then I've had matches against A-ranks and higher where they spam auto-combo or (my personal favourite "Narukami, WTF are you doing" story) had a win through time out but either because of MU unfamiliarity or impatience, decided to lose the match by giving me just enough meter to super, then running straight toward me ... and subsequently into a DP > super cancel.

One fun thing about ranked is not having to wait for a turn, as in lobbies, and fighting certain players multiple times. There was a player higher than my level that I could always force into a hard fight but I never won. A day or two and some tape-reviews later, I took a match. It's things like that that I play ranked for -- I'll set stupid goals, particularly if it's the second or third time I've fought someone, like "I will absolutely bait his DP" or "I will attempt at least one throw combo." And then you'll get into situations where you've fought someone multiple times and they refuse to play you once you pull ahead. I guess I see things like that as a sign that -- aha! -- I'm no longer rated as cannon fodder and they need a stat-inflation partner.

That being said, if you skip loading screens, I hope you step on a Lego. Just one and no actual injury, but I wish something mildly annoying upon you. Yukiko skyrockets to top tier in heavy lag....

[Demi-Fiend]

I've been slaughtering a glut of Narukamis in ranked lately ... and all of them seem to think that "instant kill = instant win option." I feel like I've blocked and punished more Narukami IKs than usual over the past few days -- we're talking 20-something. That's about all I do. Well, that and axe slam them for failing to hit-confirm their DP super cancel and getting air Ziodyne while I'm on the other side of the screen. The biggest problem with Narukami's IK is that he's grounded, so if he moves his sword and it's not 2B or 5B, you know exactly what's coming and have all the time in the world to block. Shab's works if your opponent spent their burst and you can combo into it... and I understand why Liz players spam hers, with that meter gain -- but seriously, three times in one round? Do you really think I'm that dumb? The epic sadness of her twirling her finger at the vacant counter as you roll behind her and wait to start the punish combo of your choice. Facepalm. Because I'm going to randomly decide to whip out Gatling Gun with your IK up.

Omega loves, loves, loves IKs and sometimes we just goof off with them in the room. Someone needs to find that footage of the dual Akihikos going for IK while simultaneously announcing, "I've been waiting for this moment!"

ETA:

Yeah, I've fought "high rank" players who've played 27 matches and won 26. Whereas I find ranked to be an easier (and more fun, diverse, and productive) way to play matches, as I can work in training, fight, repeat. I wear my godawful win-loss rate with pride ... and also with the knowledge that I accept match requests from people far beyond my skill level because I want to see if I can take a round, make it a close match, steal a burst, etc.

That and win-loss, ranks, etc. -- I find it deceptive, to a certain extent. I mean, I fought an F- Yosuke but that could have been someone's alt or someone with 3000 player matches, as he was legitimately good. And then I've had matches against A-ranks and higher where they spam auto-combo or (my personal favourite "Narukami, WTF are you doing" story) had a win through time out but either because of MU unfamiliarity or impatience, decided to lose the match by giving me just enough meter to super, then running straight toward me ... and subsequently into a DP > super cancel.

One fun thing about ranked is not having to wait for a turn, as in lobbies, and fighting certain players multiple times. There was a player higher than my level that I could always force into a hard fight but I never won. A day or two and some tape-reviews later, I took a match. It's things like that that I play ranked for -- I'll set stupid goals, particularly if it's the second or third time I've fought someone, like "I will absolutely bait his DP" or "I will attempt at least one throw combo." And then you'll get into situations where you've fought someone multiple times and they refuse to play you once you pull ahead. I guess I see things like that as a sign that -- aha! -- I'm no longer rated as cannon fodder and they need a stat-inflation partner.

That being said, if you skip loading screens, I hope you step on a Lego. Just one and no actual injury, but I wish something mildly annoying upon you. Yukiko skyrockets to top tier in heavy lag....

Agreed and uhh what's the problem with auto-combos? Not really familiar with fighting games at all. Also I'll keep in mind to not skip loading screens anymore,not like I ever intended to anyways,I love the character introductions.

[shoryusatsu999]

Gonna be slightly late, but I WILL be on. Have hygiene things to deal with.

[Fortune]

That being said, if you skip loading screens, I hope you step on a Lego. Just one and no actual injury, but I wish something mildly annoying upon you. Yukiko skyrockets to top tier in heavy lag....

Tee hee #LagMacro

 

Agreed and uhh what's the problem with auto-combos? Not really familiar with fighting games at all. Also I'll keep in mind to not skip loading screens anymore,not like I ever intended to anyways,I love the character introductions.

Not so much of a "problem" just that reliance on the entire auto-combo isn't very cost-efficient for most characters due to wasting 50 meter for a combo that is heavily scaled down in damage.

 

That, and/or it's straight up boring/predictable if that's the only offense you're giving. 

[mixedmethods]

All auto-combos (ACs) do sub-optimal damage and, if your opponent is using one, you'll likely have seen it enough times to know how to block it. Narukami's is an easy example: 5AAAA ends with Swift Strike/ZIOCAR, which must be blocked low; if a Narukami is auto-comboing, simply block low (or switch to crouch block) after you see his 5A (punch) turn into 5AAA (sword move). A blocked auto-combo generally leaves the user in a very bad position in terms of frame advantage -- Narukami has a pseudo-safejump for ZIOCAR, but if the player is just mashing 5A and not confirming that any part of the combo actually hit you (rather than being blocked), then he's screwed, as he's at your feet recovering from ZIOCAR and you're free to move/punish/etc. Some characters, like Yukiko and Aigis, use part of their auto-combos in actual combos and pressure -- using the first part of the auto-combo (stop before the super) builds anywhere from 12-18 meter and 1/8 of the Burst gauge. Generakly, a 5AA or 5AAA isn't a standalone move -- it's a move unique to the auto-combo, then there's a command normal (214/236 X), then, if you have 50 meter, a super gets added. The damage scaling is terrible, however, so an AC with super does less damage than a short, non-mash-A combo -- and without spending 50 meter. Also, if you just keep mashing A, your opponent may block your super, meaning you wasted 50 meter. Narukami's AC ends with Ziodyne C, which is bad on block (particularly at close range). Because the super during the AC is a super cancel, 4.x% of your health is converted to blue health, which regenerates only if you don't get hit.

Chie can use 5AA in pressure; Yukiko can use 5AAA in some strings; Aigis uses part of her 5A chain in combos because the 5AA launches the opponent but the AC can be halted there to allow her to do 22A/B (activate Orgia), then jump into an air combo that knocks the opponent down. (Then Aigis does Orgia mix-up and puts you into a Megido combo and you're sad.) 5AAA grants hard knockdown. Aigis is a character who gets her best damage in Orgia mode, which will not activate as part of her auto-combo. Her AC also uses 18 of her 120 bullets, so mashing that AC repeatedly will quickly leave you out of ammo. It's also very low damage (2.2k, I think, with the super) compared to, well, anything else I could do in Orgia -- even a single Megido combo will come in around 2.5k, double Megido... the damage depends on the starter, but for 25 meter and no bullets (versus 50 meter and 18 bullets), double Megido is minimally 4k. Aigis's damage comes from Orgia, not bullets. The super at the end of her AC does 2k damage raw, but the entire AC is worth about 2.2k... that's 50 meter spent for really lousy damage, particularly since there are better ways to use that super and get much more damage out of it.

That's also not even getting into the fact that ACs don't give you oki, which is another problem. Narukami gets very little out of his 5AAAA string vs. 2AB (sweep) > 5DD > The Narukami Guessing Game. (That's going away next game -- the sweep > 5DD > you're stuck in the corner until you die thing.) His AC gives him some meter gain but compared to the trainwreck Narukami can turn you into, it's a bad deal.

tl;dr ACs leave you in a bad situation on block and pretty much everyone who's played P4A knows how to block Naukami's, Chie's, etc. the upshot is that you can't drop a 5A mash (with a few exceptions....), so if you absolutely need to kill someone and don't want to bother with turning the hit confirm into a legit combo, you can mash 5A to take off the last of someone's lifebar. And if you're new and/or blank on a combo, you can mash 5A as a form of offence once you get in (meaning you actually land a hit), but if you're standing there at match start mashing 5A and hoping your opponent will run into your AC, you're ... hitting buttons more than actually playing a fighting game. I'm not saying I'm not guilty of using ACs myself, or of hitting too many 5As and ruining my life, but as an Aigis main, trust me, my 5A mash is the least of your problems. ACs work (in their flawed way) as long as they hit; on block, they're terrible, because they're not meant to be used as blockstrings. That's the opposite of what their intended use is, actually.

When I see a Narukami run up to me and try to start a 5A mash at the start of the round, I've already won. Narukami's AC is not threatening. Narukami's (seemingly) endless mix-up, or, as one poster put it, the creeping sense of helplessness he instills in you after he knocks you down is threatening because I have to block that shit, a lot of it is safe on block if he does it right, Aigis's DP won't help me, and I'm left trying to find a way out of the corner before I guess wrong and he gets me with his high/low game. Chie's sweep > 5DD works the same way: you're stuck in the corner unless they screw up.

[nilcam]

Conversely, auto combos are a legit part of the game and do offer some advantage. Yosuke gets a nice amount of meter at the cost of some damage, if the AC does not end in super. Akihiko gets good damage and meter in the same situation. I like to mix in auto combos here and there to mess with the tempo of the match. I also find auto combos to be a good way to punish moves that you find difficult to punish; Aki's AC is especially good for this as it will connect on a descending character and keep them in juggle state throughout the combo.

[Balguna]

As said, some characters do have use for their auto combos, though few of them complete it all the way. For instance, Teddie can use his autocombo in the corner for more meter at the expense of some damage, or to use it as 5AAA>j.D midscreen as item oki, for more meter but at the expense of less damage and not being able to keep close on your opponent. Yukiko uses hers at the end of Maragi loops if she wants to keep close. It really depends on the character.

 

Some have very little use for it, as said. Aigis really doesn't want to use anything above 5AA, for example.

[Demi-Fiend]

Tee hee #LagMacro

 

Not so much of a "problem" just that reliance on the entire auto-combo isn't very cost-efficient for most characters due to wasting 50 meter for a combo that is heavily scaled down in damage.

 

That, and/or it's straight up boring/predictable if that's the only offense you're giving. 

Ah I see,and thanks for all the other replies regarding auto combos! :P

[mixedmethods]

I forgot our Lord and Saviour Omex just released another vid. This one shows exactly what you can do with auto-combos -- I should have mentioned that 5A/2A stagger pressure is a major part of Arena, and the 5A > 2A > 5A > 5AA examples reminded me that I failed to note that.

I agree with everyone in that ACs are a legit part of gameplay, assuming we're talking about players who know what they're doing. The "AC spam" remark that kicked all this off was just me referring to a few Narukamis who kept mashing 5A at round start, assuming I'd run into the fist, and doing the full AC on block, DP > super cancel when the DP was blocked, etc.

Long story short: ACs give you a guaranteed way to convert a hit into damage at the expense of optimal routes, with some characters moving further from optimal than others. (Cough. Aigis. Cough.) Players can also use pieces of the AC (5A > 2A > 5AA) for pressure, frame traps and the like, since 5AA is not a regular input. (And sometimes you can get 5AA even if you whiff 5A but that's an extra level of complicated, so let's leave it at "2A > 5A > 5AA and similar sequences are often really good -- well done, game!") As a player, Demi-Fiend (great username, by the way), you want to make sure you know your options off your AC and to not repeatedly mash 5AAA without confirming that the initial 5A hit. If you've played Score Attack, Versus, or Arcade against the AI, you may have noticed that the AI will often run straight into an AC, but a human player won't. 5A > 2A > 5AAA or even 5A > (confirm that 5A wasn't blocked) > 5AAA[AA] are basic ways to make sure you actually land your AC rather than get blown up by mash.

After that, and leaving aside Teddie and Aigis, it's a debate over which characters get the most out of their 5A chains -- which is changing in Ultimax, of course, but sticking to Arena: some characters have ACs that require you to block an overhead (standing) and a low (crouching); some have only an overhead or a low (again, Narukami: one move in the sequence must be blocked low); some have neither. Some have good corner carry, some don't. Some characters have ACs that can be cancelled out of at 5AAA and still combo into massive damage, while some characters are left in a terrible position after 5AAA, and some characters are somewhere in between. (As an Aigis main, 5AA is preferable but if I hit 5AAA instead -- and I do -- then I leave my opponent in hard knockdown and can either mode change or keep going into a non-5A combo.) It's worth picking apart the AC of whichever chatacter(s) you play to learn your options.

[Balguna]

Regarding staggering, it's also worth noting there is a limit to how much you can do it. Most characters can only do 5A and 2A a maximum of three times a string combined - so 5A > 2A > 5A is fine, 2A > 2A > 5A is fine, but 2A > 2A > 2A > 5A is not. Teddie is another exception, as he can only go between 5A/2A once per string. So you can do 2A > 2A > 5A, but not 5A > 2A > 5A. Which means if you're going for 5A > 2A, you'll need another plan if the 2A lands since you won't be able to go straight into 5A.

 

Several characters also have this rule for other normals, such as Yukiko and Kanji's 5C/2Cs.

[Fortune]

All I gotta say is expect a very uncharacteristic horrific about-face from me during casuals tonight. Blame mixedmethods if you have too. Yes, I still hate Yosuke - who actually  burst my bubble yet again....so yeah... #countdown_party #shocking_twist

 

Exposed!

[mixedmethods]

FYI, I'm running late. Actually have plans. Should be there by 9:30-ish, though.

[nilcam]

Good games last night! I really enjoyed the silliness going down.

 

My resolve to not buy the Japanese version is waning. I'll still get the US release but man I want to play the new game. Also, my stick art and plexi will be here by the end of the week. HYPE!

 

EDIT: Fuck it. I just added the funds to my JPN PSN account. AS Oscar Wilde said, "I can resist anything except temptation."

[Fortune]

Not even kupo was safe! He got sucked into the vortex horror of Fraudukami by accident today, hilarity ensued! 

[Demi-Fiend]

I forgot our Lord and Saviour Omex just released another vid. This one shows exactly what you can do with auto-combos -- I should have mentioned that 5A/2A stagger pressure is a major part of Arena, and the 5A > 2A > 5A > 5AA examples reminded me that I failed to note that.

I agree with everyone in that ACs are a legit part of gameplay, assuming we're talking about players who know what they're doing. The "AC spam" remark that kicked all this off was just me referring to a few Narukamis who kept mashing 5A at round start, assuming I'd run into the fist, and doing the full AC on block, DP > super cancel when the DP was blocked, etc.

Long story short: ACs give you a guaranteed way to convert a hit into damage at the expense of optimal routes, with some characters moving further from optimal than others. (Cough. Aigis. Cough.) Players can also use pieces of the AC (5A > 2A > 5AA) for pressure, frame traps and the like, since 5AA is not a regular input. (And sometimes you can get 5AA even if you whiff 5A but that's an extra level of complicated, so let's leave it at "2A > 5A > 5AA and similar sequences are often really good -- well done, game!") As a player, Demi-Fiend (great username, by the way), you want to make sure you know your options off your AC and to not repeatedly mash 5AAA without confirming that the initial 5A hit. If you've played Score Attack, Versus, or Arcade against the AI, you may have noticed that the AI will often run straight into an AC, but a human player won't. 5A > 2A > 5AAA or even 5A > (confirm that 5A wasn't blocked) > 5AAA[AA] are basic ways to make sure you actually land your AC rather than get blown up by mash.

After that, and leaving aside Teddie and Aigis, it's a debate over which characters get the most out of their 5A chains -- which is changing in Ultimax, of course, but sticking to Arena: some characters have ACs that require you to block an overhead (standing) and a low (crouching); some have only an overhead or a low (again, Narukami: one move in the sequence must be blocked low); some have neither. Some have good corner carry, some don't. Some characters have ACs that can be cancelled out of at 5AAA and still combo into massive damage, while some characters are left in a terrible position after 5AAA, and some characters are somewhere in between. (As an Aigis main, 5AA is preferable but if I hit 5AAA instead -- and I do -- then I leave my opponent in hard knockdown and can either mode change or keep going into a non-5A combo.) It's worth picking apart the AC of whichever chatacter(s) you play to learn your options.

Late reply but thanks for the explanation on ACs and the video.