BB:CS Match-Up Chart

[Irrsinn]

All I see is bitching about characters that there's no need to bitch about, myself.

Yeah, you know, I said the same thing about the air grabs. Then I realized, they're 7 frames and can counter hit. And I actually watched a shit ton of Japanese video; almost literally every Arakune win is "Oh air grab counter lol"

And are you sure about this? because I'm pretty sure I've been watching a shit ton of japanese videos too, and all the Arakune grabs get bursted after the first hit, 90% of the time.

[Dacidbro]

Dude, are you fucking kidding me? When you have to burst every time a 7 frame AERIAL GRAB hits you, something is fucking WAY off. That's a jab, with magnetic, circular range. Are you really this dense?

[Alex073088]

that's the point of this thread.

someone says something stupid and you argue it only to have SJ point out how dumb both people are and leave us with the most witty summary we have ever heard.

but fixing jump start up would be nice.

I'm tired of people mashing jump like a fucking retard.

lol dude i agree with that. i even complained about that. it is so easy to jump out of pressure in this game, making it even harder to lock down nu and arakune indefinitley. however if they were to do this they would need to increase the command throws by the same amount of frames only so that they wont be so free in certain situations. =)

[Dacidbro]

It's not that easy to jump out unless you're ara/litchi. Sol, if people be jumpin out a lot yomi colider them, it's a hard counter if you're right. :v

You have a better solution than most. Use that shit ALL DAY against CS Ara/Litchi, aight?

Also, you are throw invulnerable the very first frame you jump, so that's not a valid argument.

[A.X.I.S.]

lol dude i agree with that. i even complained about that. it is so easy to jump out of pressure in this game, making it even harder to lock down nu and arakune indefinitley. however if they were to do this they would need to increase the command throws by the same amount of frames only so that they wont be so free in certain situations. =)

well I'm speaking CT perspective and besides you can always train them to not jump...by poking low...anyways this is not CT this is CS.

It's not that easy to jump out unless you're ara/litchi. Sol, if people be jumpin out a lot yomi colider them, it's a hard counter if you're right. :v

You have a better solution than most. Use that shit ALL DAY against CS Ara/Litchi, aight?

Also, you are throw invulnerable the very first frame you jump, so that's not a valid argument.

man in CS I can yomi easy now...I can't wait.

like I said before if you want people to not jump then keep mashing lows and air grabs until they learn or die.

this is not gameplay discussion folks.

you are making shtkn face palm.

[Dacidbro]

What is this thread for if not discussing the ways characters can counter other characters??

Seriously, this thread is completely pointless if I can't say Tager should yomi colider characters with fast jumps to reduce their crazy advantage.

[ATGMantenbo]

is litchi's jump 3 frames in CS?

[A.X.I.S.]

What is this thread for if not discussing the ways characters can counter other characters??

Seriously, this thread is completely pointless if I can't say Tager should yomi colider characters with fast jumps to reduce their crazy advantage.

I am having a ball today.

and yes tager should yomi collider...my post was actually pointing to alex but ok.

[Dacidbro]

Yeah, ATG. It's another reason she's sooooo gdlk. It makes 2A > rising jB an even faster instant overhead, too.

[ATGMantenbo]

I see.. thx for the confirmation ... so litchi and ara have the fastest jumps

[Dacidbro]

Yep. Everyone else is at 4. It means a lot more than it would seem to, Ara and Litchi are so slippery for it. But, on the inverse, catching them with yomi AUB or air-command grab nonsense is a hundred times easier if the litchi/ara is auto-piloting jump because of it.

So use it responsibly, or it may turn into a disadvantage.

[Skye]

Everyone, please calm down. I'm actually legitimately enjoying this discussion.

Yeah, you know, I said the same thing about the air grabs. Then I realized, they're 7 frames and can counter hit. And I actually watched a shit ton of Japanese video; almost literally every Arakune win is "Oh air grab counter lol"

I believe that is the result of the said recklessness I pointed out. If they were more careful and wary of his grabs, they'd do a better job avoiding it.

I can't describe good players getting air grabbed by someone mashing air grab as anything but reckless. Tao, Hakumen and Litchi have high damage combos from an air grab too, Tager, Jin, Lambda (with meter) and Carl all have advantageous and often high damage options from an air grab, a few of these grabs have universal circumstances that do not require them to be close to the ground, it's not an advantage that's exclusive to Arakune.

But as his design is awkward and unconventional, his advantages are far different, but equally as rewarding.

[Dacidbro]

I believe that is the result of the said recklessness I pointed out. If they were more careful and wary of his grabs, they'd do a better job avoiding it.

I can't describe good players getting air grabbed by someone mashing air grab as anything but reckless. Tao, Hakumen and Litchi have high damage combos from an air grab too, Tager, Jin, Lambda (with meter) and Carl all have advantageous and often high damage options from an air grab, a few of these grabs have universal circumstances that do not require them to be close to the ground, it's not an advantage that's exclusive to Arakune.

But as his design is awkward and unconventional, his advantages are far different, but equally as rewarding.

Yeah, you know what's universal?

Every single player in japan gets hit by the aforementioned air grabs, a lot. Some characters have a lot more ways to avoid it, like Ragna and Litchi with godly pokes, but it always sneaks in there eventually and removes half+ health.

They deliberately ramped up air grabs MASSIVELY in CS. Having played it, a lot, and watched way, way too many japanese videos, I understand this. Arakune happens to have the most ludicrous follow up; it is not an equal advantage. You are given curse, for free, instantly, off a 7 frame air attack. If you hit ANY hit during that curse, in which people are primarily unable to retaliate, you can follow up with probably 5k as a minimum (One shot as a max), with something like 70 percent curse and maybe oki for free.

Curse was meant to be a build up; but it's ending up nearly the same as CT curse, except it doesn't end when you get hit and can be set up for more afterwards (granted, that part isn't as bad as CT's, but fever itself is SO much more devastating)

Sol: Intentional stupidity was an option. It was more a hint to ban him than anything else. There are threads you troll and threads you don't. This is just a failure of the online community that plagues all internet based anythings that is degrading our actual BB community; a failure to understand right place right time.

[Kyosuke Kagami]

Can't Haku black hole Ara's shit?

I'm sure he can do that with the insects and some D attacks, but I haven't checked if it's same with the fog or other special moves.

[Skye]

Curse was meant to be a build up; but it's ending up nearly the same as CT curse, except it doesn't end when you get hit and can be set up for more afterwards (granted, that part isn't as bad as CT's, but fever itself is SO much more devastating)

I can certainly understand that, but it's still nothing like CT's curse system, I think that was a bit of an over-exaggeration.

Yes his air grab is a doozy, I'm not debating that at all.

What I believe about it is that it's not at all an all-purpose-keep-opponents-out-free-wins maneuver. If the japanese are getting air grabbed by Arakune, why is it Arakune's fault for grabbing them? It's a counter grab too, so isn't it really their fault for rushing in like that, if Arakune is jumping and spamming grab, why not a ground approach? Why not anticipate it, and break it, or punish it with a long range air poke or projectile?

I'm just saying people need to learn to respect his air grab and be a bit more cautious and strategical about their approaches, instead of "hurp derp rush dat shit down", instead of wanting to nerf it so they don't have to think about getting in on Arakune by air.

[Dacidbro]

If the top japanese players are getting air grabbed, and your only perspective is "they need to learn basic gameplay better", you're overlooking a ton. This is a common American mistake. Don't feel bad.

Kyo; For sure, Hakumen is easily the calmest under curse. Unfortunately for him, he has incredible difficulty avoiding zone-curse, as follow clouds with teleport supporting it is brutal when you only have shitty hops. But I think Haku is probably one of Ara's most delicate matchups, if not hardest.

[Skye]

hahaha, Dacid, I'm saying they should be careful.

The same way people look out for DPs and 720, just show it some respect.

The japanese aren't perfect, and a recurring--rather dangerous tactic that works on them isn't mad broken.

[A.X.I.S.]

Sol: Intentional stupidity was an option. It was more a hint to ban him than anything else. There are threads you troll and threads you don't. This is just a failure of the online community that plagues all internet based anythings that is degrading our actual BB community; a failure to understand right place right time.

touche.

I'd also like to say fever mode is painful...16 seconds of blocking and trying to guess right and having him rip most characters primers apart for 4-6k.

also he gets hell of a lot of meter for it...but then again everyone in CS gets too much meter.

[Dacidbro]

hahaha, Dacid, I'm saying they should be careful.

The same way people look out for DPs and 720, just show it some respect.

Yeah, but it's completely different. Air grab is not committing, it's fast as hell, and you don't have to set it up or anything. Unlike a DP, it is virtually unpunishable and deals MASSIVE damage, while still being just as fast as most DPs (important note; not invincible lol), and unlike 720, you don't need meter, you won't get punished on whiff, more mobility, and much much easier to land.

Also; air grabbing is not dangerous. It's roughly as committing as jA.

[Skye]

Yeah, but it's completely different. Air grab is not committing, it's fast as hell, and you don't have to set it up or anything. Unlike a DP, it is virtually unpunishable and deals MASSIVE damage, while still being just as fast as most DPs (important note; not invincible lol), and unlike 720, you don't need meter, you won't get punished on whiff, more mobility, and much much easier to land.

Also; air grabbing is not dangerous. It's roughly as committing as jA.

I say it's dangerous because when you're mashing it at every opportunity, it shouldn't take long to pick up on it, and react accordingly.

It's a powerful tool for him. And taking it away, let alone all of his 100% curse combos, will seriously hurt him as a character, especially against Bang, Litchi and Lambda, all who have every tool in their power to keep Arakune from getting any meter whatsoever, and now these characters are perfectly permitted to autopilot an air to air rush down?

I'd sooner call bullshit on that.

It's a grab.

I thought BB's grab system was useless because their so dirt easy to break? Now all of a sudden it's retarded good and calls for nerfing.

Make up your minds, it can't be both, that's too contradictory.

[Spirit Juice]

Dude, are you fucking kidding me? When you have to burst every time a 7 frame AERIAL GRAB hits you, something is fucking WAY off. That's a jab, with magnetic, circular range. Are you really this dense?

Bursting to prevent curse is pretty much standard now. It's not that big of a deal. There isn't any reason not to burst when you get air thrown by Arakune (unless he air threw you way up in the air).

They deliberately ramped up air grabs MASSIVELY in CS. Having played it, a lot, and watched way, way too many japanese videos, I understand this. Arakune happens to have the most ludicrous follow up; it is not an equal advantage. You are given curse, for free, instantly, off a 7 frame air attack. If you hit ANY hit during that curse, in which people are primarily unable to retaliate, you can follow up with probably 5k as a minimum (One shot as a max), with something like 70 percent curse and maybe oki for free.

This is actually quite wrong. Air throws, for the most part, remain largely unchanged (aside from the universe tech window being shortened). No air throws got sped up. I think Noel's air throw got nerfed (either worse range or slower start up), and Litchi's air throw range was shortened as well. There were no buffs whatsoever.

You are vastly overexaggerating Arakune's effectiveness. Yes, he is a good character; no doubt about that. However, you're making him seem like he's SS tier in your posts, which is simply far from the truth.

[Dacidbro]

Anyone who is saying air grabs are useless is stupid or blind, and in either case has probably not played top level BB, or observed it correctly. Gonna set that straight right there.

I'm saying that Arakune's air grab, when used as an intelligent tool, is literally unreact-to-able, and if this 7 frame attack is landed (Either a failure to tech or a counter hit, the latter being more common in intelligent context), your opponent often INSTANTLY LOSES. This is RETARDED.

I agree that it would hurt him, that's the idea. His normals at the moment are overall shit, lets improve those and remove his one-shot-bullshit. Right now he's just the most unbelievable gimmick character ever, with constantly rolling MASSIVE reward hard to punish gimmicks, and if one hits, you probably lost unless your defense is gdlk. So he's a stupid character, and I want him to be less stupid, and more interesting.

SJ; Of course they buffed air grabs. You never lost a match for getting air grabbed in CT, and rarely even lost half your health. Don't tell me you forgot about follow up when you gauged improvements?

My posts are making Ara seem like god tier because I'm only assessing his stupid elements. I know his normals are horrible, I know his defense is 2 faceted (IB Jump out, IB backdash, or if you're really bold IB reversal super). I understand his weaknesses, I am communicating his strengths because people don't understand their power.

Also, you're really comfortable with being forced to burst literally every time you get hit by a 7 frame aerial? Is this because your character has godly disjointed air attack hit boxes and can avoid it, or because you don't think it's a stupid game mechanic.

[Skye]

CS Arakune isn't more interesting?

That's new.

I'll leave this discussion.

It's starting to feel like a debate of attrition.

Nice exchanging thoughts with you Dacid.

[Dacidbro]

He's more interesting than CT arakune, which was the most uninteresting pile of garbage ever.

Thanks for being intelligent skye, you were responding with things that did make sense, I just disagree with them because I used to think the same thing but changed my mind after looking at more things. (accidentally implied, I think you will change your mind too, sorry if that sounds like a superiority claim. )

[Spirit Juice]

SJ; Of course they buffed air grabs. You never lost a match for getting air grabbed in CT, and rarely even lost half your health. Don't tell me you forgot about follow up when you gauged improvements?

That does not mean air throws were buffed at all. Properties of them were not buffed at all.

I personally think air throws in this game are lacking, but I've been spoiled by GG. If they were buffed (i.e. made faster, could hit above), it would punish BB's favor of being in the air rather than being on the ground. Of course they'd have to change damage after an air throw or change some properties around (i.e. only comboable in certain situations, namely screen positioning).