[CSE] Rachel Mixup/Pressure Compendium

[TD]

another zoning tools post. feel free to add to it

tiny lobelia/sword iris

approach - use d, as 236a/b/c or j.236a/b/c's recovery ends, and then jump. this will put your foe in enough blockstun to frametrap with a tk iris. hit, block, or whiff, you'll move a considerable distance from your position. the tk iris will get you very close to the foe with 5d, and with plus frames to boot.

pressure: lobelia ends pressure safely without the use of wind. puts a big enough distance from your foe.

ln addition, except 2c all of her ground normals are cancellable into sword iris, whose startup is 19f. this creates frametraps from all of rachel's ground normals except 2c.

from 5a, 5b and 6b you can tk (2147c) sword iris. the benefit is that by doing this you recover MUCH faster than ground iris, which grants you a huge advantage, around +24f. that's enough to make 4b alot safer for example. plus the animation lingers a bit after tk iris, making your next attack slightly ambiguous.

[Kuuhaku]

I'll add stuff once I'm not feeling lazy. But thanks for everyone's input.

SPA- Rachel also gets pretty significant rewards from corner cross up. If you get a j.C starter, that's 90 p1 which means the following combo will hurt quite a bit. I understand you're trying to think of- "What if it doesn't work?" But you also have to take into account- "What if it does? What are the rewards and what are the risks?"

Them escaping is not a risk. Of course at some point they're going to get out of pressure. After all, this isn't CT Rachel and at some point they'll get 50 meter and dead angle out, find a point where they can jump, where they can mash out, etc.

The risk for corner cross up is that you risk being dead angled or bursted into the corner. The reward is if it works, you get pretty good damage, wind, and you put them back in the corner with them more scared of what you're going to do next.

Normal corner pressure your likely starters are j.A/j.B or 2B. If they're not paying attention- 4B. If they mess up, 3C or 5B. Where as even if they are paying attention a corner cross up is something that's very of putting and something that can throw off a lot of players... especially if they've never seen it before.

I mean, Noel has the same thing where she can corner cross up with j.4D which is a very obnoxious tool. Yes Noel's corner pressure is really strong with her mashing 5A at you so why do a corner cross up? Well, getting hit with j.4D cross up hurts and sucks. If you block the cross up, then she would face the same problem that Rachel faces except she can't use pumpkin to cover her butt and keep going. But will she use it and should you expect it? Yes. Having more tools available and taking into consideration more options makes you a better player... not a worse one.

[Sakaku]

1 Wind

5B 2D j.A (extremely fast overhead. does not work on Litchi. gapless)

Are you positive it works on Noel? I had the pleasure to fight Noel for my first time two weeks ago and I never got it to work.

[gli]

tested some char specific stuff

blahblah>6cd>j.c>5b>5cc fails on valkenhayn

5b(blocked)>j.a2d whiffs on rachel(hits on ib or after 5a, lol), noel, litchi and hazama

5b(hit)>j.a2d whiffs on tsubaki and makoto

This was posted in the combo thread but it's more useful to have here. In bold is the notable part. Worth testing though since I haven't confirmed these for myself yet.

[Tari]

Tested some of it, and it was accurate.

Against any character that j.A2D whiffs on, you have to delay the j.A a tiny bit to make it connect. It still combos, though I don't believe it's gapless on block when you're forced to do it that way.

[[SpA]Relentless]

Against these chars I believe it's better to use j.B j.A instead of the way around. Since you have to delay it anyway, you can as well take the starter with the better proration.

If you're on point, you can try to hitconfirm from j.B alone, and if they block, go for a fuzzy guard (so 5B2D jc delay j.B (all blocked) djc j.B j.A j.C). It's pretty hard to confirm this correctly though.

Speaking of j.B overhead, on Tager and Hakumen you can use 5B2D jc j.B j.C as an instant overhead string. It hits them perfectly even when they are crouching and is only 1f slower than j.A j.B, but has much better proration (for example, her BnB corner combo does about 2k with j.A j.B starter and about 2.5k with j.B j.C starter).

I think it might work on Bang and Ragna too but I didn't test it yet.

[kotokot]

Relentless;1141718']Against these chars I believe it's better to use j.B j.A instead of the way around. Since you have to delay it anyway, you can as well take the starter with the better proration.

If you're on point, you can try to hitconfirm from j.B alone, and if they block, go for a fuzzy guard (so 5B2D jc delay j.B (all blocked) djc j.B j.A j.C). It's pretty hard to confirm this correctly though.

j.B is slower and hits higher, so it hits few frames later, easier to block. But reward is much higher.

Relentless;1141718']Speaking of j.B overhead, on Tager and Hakumen you can use 5B2D jc j.B j.C as an instant overhead string. It hits them perfectly even when they are crouching and is only 1f slower than j.A j.B, but has much better proration (for example, her BnB corner combo does about 2k with j.A j.B starter and about 2.5k with j.B j.C starter).

I think it might work on Bang and Ragna too but I didn't test it yet.

after instant blocking 5B there is 1f gap before j.B, haku can catch or tager can do wheel(according to framedata you'll be able to block), but you must annoy them with this before it happens)

on other chars you must delay j.b and it's still char specific.

j.A j.C works on haku, tager, bang, carl, valkenhain(on j.A hit only) and have better proration, hitstun(easier to dash 5b 5cc) and damage, than j.A j.B.

btw, does anyone tried to find option selects? after j.2C lv1 knockdown you can input 2a5b([9 2d j.A j.C]/2b) for easier confirm/oki mixups

good to keep in mind, that after j.2C and 3C opponent must use emergency tech or wait some time(28F?) for other recovery options(Midair Knockdown in system guide), after 5CC they can use rolls.

[[SpA]Relentless]

j.B is slower and hits higher, so it hits few frames later, easier to block. But reward is much higher.

No, I don't think you understood what I was saying.

On crouching Noel, Litchi, Hazama and Rachel you have to delay j.A after a blocked 5B 2D jc. Since you have to delay the j.A in order to hit them, you can as well use j.B because you have to delay it for about the same time as j.A (but it nets you better damage if it hits). So on these chars the startup is virtually the same.

[TD]

with a little practice you can use the blockstun from (2d) jb to visually confirm whether to fuzzy or not. it's a pretty small window, but once you land the blocked j.b, you high/low options from it are safe.

basically the scenario would go like this

(blockstring) 5b 2d j.b delay...

at this point take a second to confirm. your options are:

- dj j.b j.a j.b j.c...

- land 2b

- (if hit) land 5b

some people can react to j.b, so it's best not to just autopilot it into your strategy, remember you can always 5b 2d jump barrier to bait dp's.

[kotokot]

Relentless;1141858']No, I don't think you understood what I was saying.

On crouching Noel, Litchi, Hazama and Rachel you have to delay j.A after a blocked 5B 2D jc. Since you have to delay the j.A in order to hit them, you can as well use j.B because you have to delay it for about the same time as j.A (but it nets you better damage if it hits). So on these chars the startup is virtually the same.

difference could be 1-2 frames because hitboxes, though no one will notice it.

with a little practice you can use the blockstun from (2d) jb to visually confirm whether to fuzzy or not. it's a pretty small window, but once you land the blocked j.b, you high/low options from it are safe.

random blocking in training could be very useful for this. Either you get 5b hit, either j.b, either block.

[[SpA]Relentless]

3C9D breakdown per character

I tested two different ranges for this. Close range is point-blank 5B > 3C9D > 5B. Far range is the range you get to when you're point-blank to the enemy, then do 5A(2) > 5B > 6B > 3C9D > 5B. This is pretty much the max range where you can hit with 3C9D > 5B. For anything farther you will be required to use 6BD > 3C8D > 5B. I didn't test the ranges between those two but I think the rules are the same as for far range. Only close range is really different.

Close Range

On these characters you have to do 9D after the 1st hit of 3C:

Hazama, Lambda, Taokaka, Jin, Bang, Hakumen, Tsubaki, Makoto, Valkenhayn

-On Hakumen, Tsubaki and Valkenhayn, if you try to continue the combo with j.2C(Lv2) > 236B > j.C > djc > j.C > j.214C, Sword Iris will whiff due to the way 9D pushes you towards the opponent. On Tsubaki you also run risk of completely missing with the 236B, you have to be very exact. On Tsubaki it is possible to connect the whole combo if you do 3C9D > 5B > 8jc > j.C > 2D > 8djc > j.2C(Lv2) > etc. (9D pushes you into the opponent so it works with neutral jumps), but it's not very reliable.

-On Tsubaki, the 2nd hit of 3C sometimes whiffs but the 3rd hit connects again. This can really throw of your timing so be prepared.

On these characters you have to 9D after either the 1st or 2nd hit of 3C:

Ragna, Rachel, Carl

-Sword Iris whiffs on Ragna.

On these characters you have to 9D either before the first hit of 3C or after the 2nd hit of 3C, but not after the first hit of 3C:

Arakune, Mu

-On Mu, you have to enter 9D very early if you want to do it before the first hit of 3C, a little too late and you will crossunder. If you 9D after the 2nd hit of 3C, Sword Iris will whiff on her.

On these characters you have to enter 9D specifically between the 2nd and 3rd hit of 3C:

Litchi, Platinum

-On Litchi the 3rd hit of 3C will whiff most of the time so be prepared.

-Sword Iris whiffs on both Platinum and Litchi.

On this character you have to enter 9D before the first hit of 3C:

Tager

Far range

For far range, you have to enter 9D before the first of 3C for every character. On some characters it's easier than on others though but it basically works on everyone.

- On Tager, the 2nd and 3rd hit of 3C sometimes whiff and the timing is generally very weird on him.

- On Litchi, Hakumen, Valkenhayn and Platinum, Sword Iris whiffs. On everyone else it should connect (even on the characters where it whiffed at close range 3C9D).

Other notes:

-I find that with 3C9D I got the most consistent timing for j.2C(Lv2) frog combos because you're forced to hit with 5B at a very late moment.

-On this character, 3C9D > 5B does not work at all:

NOEL

And this happens, obviously, because Noel was meant to be hated.

It's up to you if you want to try and memorize all that and try to integrate it into your gameplan, or if you want to take post-it notes to your matches

I'm not sure if I have the motivation myself to remember all that, but anyway, it's here now :X

[TD]

good stuff. just ought to learn it

have you tried ...236b j.c dj delay j.c j.214c on the characters iris whiffs on?

[Tari]

Quick note about your results, Spa:

Close range, any character who doesn't fall out of 3C can be picked up with 3C(3 hits)9D. ie: You can input 9D after the 3rd hit of 3C and combo into 5B blah blah j.214C. This includes, for example, Carl and Platinum.

That said, it's usually safer to just input 9D after the 2nd hit on most characters, as it should work on basically everyone but Tager, and your notes seem to back this up.

Figured it was worth mentioning, though, as it does allow for ridiculously easy hitconfirm on a number of characters... as though 2 hits of 3C isn't enough time to realize you've hit them, right?

good stuff. just ought to learn it

have you tried ...236b j.c dj delay j.c j.214c on the characters iris whiffs on?

This works on everyone, basically, unless your combo is prorated too much.

edit: figure I should mention that this tends to cause you to cross up after j.214C, so if you want to do BBL on landing, make sure you input it in the right direction.

[[SpA]Relentless]

That said, it's usually safer to just input 9D after the 2nd hit on most characters, as it should work on basically everyone but Tager, and your notes seem to back this up.

It might be the possible on most chars where I wrote "after 1st hit" that it also works after the 2nd hit (didn't test very thouroghly cause anytime I started P-mode, I was required to play in the MBAA/MOTW tournament, or someone wanted to play casuals with me ).

But on Tager, Arakune and Mu it definitely doesn't work after the 2nd hit, and on Litchi and Platinum it definitely doesn't work between the 1st & 2nd hit.

I actually didn't test 3C(3) on any char, cause I was happy with the first result that worked

have you tried ...236b j.c dj delay j.c j.214c on the characters iris whiffs on?

No, forgot about that. But as Tari said, it should work if it didn't prorate too much yet.

I think j.[C] > j.C > jc > j.C > j.214C might also work for low proration but I suck at j.[C] combos.

[Tari]

I can get 3C9D to work after the second hit of 3C on both Arakune and Mu. We might have slightly different definitions of 'after the second hit,' but you can definitely input 9D as soon as you see 3C hit the second time and continue comboing.

[[SpA]Relentless]

Fail on my part, I actually meant to say after the first hit (like in my original post).

But anyway, I thought about it again and came to the conclusion that close range shouldn't really matter. Most of the time when you hit the opponent with close range 5B, you either go for a 6CD corner carry or a 5CC corner combo. And if the close range 5B is blocked, you better mixup with 2B because it doesn't end your pressure.

In CT close range 5B 3C9D was used for mixup because that was the only low option you had after 5B. Since you can gatling to 2B now, it's not useful anymore.

So the only range where 3C9D is really useful is far range:

-where 2B and 6CD don't hit anymore

-when you want to still have a halfway decent high-low mixup (6B3D > jc > j.A or 6B > 3C9D)

-when you want to keep a combo going on a far away crouching opponent (since 3D > jc > j.B > j.C only works on standing opponents)

And since we now know that far range 3C9D works on everyone except Noel with the same basic timing (input 9D before 3C comes out), the only thing that now matters is how hard it is on different characters to continue the combo. On Tager it's kinda butt, but on everyone else it's certainly doable.

However it's still easier to do 6BD 3C8D for a combo and it works from farther away, and since Rachel almost never runs out of wind in CS2... I guess I just answered myself why Japanese Rachel players don't use 3C9D anymore

I'll still try and use it at least for mid-far range

[TD]

3c is still good in continuing pressure if you're really good at manipulating the hits, the last hit in particular. you can get anywhere from 1 to 8 (7? l always counted 8) hits from 3c, and can make some of the hits whiff, making instant blocking or punishing a move after it inconsistent (and dangerous. proper confirm off of 3c is at least 3.5k). at any point that the foe dosent block low they will get hit, and you can set up high/low/throw/crossup/throw feint from the last hit if it is blocked.

(I could possibly do some sort of writeup on 3c in pressure once l get some more practice in.)

but thanks for this info! l for the life of me couldn't find a combo that would hit a far crouching foe. now l have all combo scenarios for rachel noted! :3

[Sindelian]

Once again Rachel's wind proves to be one of the best if not the best drive in the game with the most versatility.

Burst Baits:

Normally the best way to burst bait against a standing burst is to jump cancel a normal into a barrier block and that's it. The problem is hat they're very hard to punish.

So I encourage you guys to toss in a 3d right before the move you jump cancel in order to be able to easily punish your opponent. Use the forward jump to make sure you don't get pushed back far. Also, remember to NOT barrier block, regular air block will work just as well.

Besure to DELAY your forward jump to prevent a super jump, 5B has enough hit stun to make sure they won't do anything (unless they're mashing up a storm)

The best thing about this is that Rachels always do down winds into jumps so your opponent won't even KNOW you're trying to burst bait them if they end up not even bursting. You can delay an air attack or land and attack, but either way your opponent won't know your attempting to make them waste their burst.

My favorite method of doing this is:

2B >5B > 3D > (wait) > fwd jump + air block

If it's unsuccessful an I still think they'll burst I will land and and start the combo again. Only a successful 2b would lead into a burst bait for me.

This also works great for counter assaults and random supers people do between Rachel's 5B and 5C gatling.

Let me once again emphasize that you will be close enough to the ground to punish them.

Let me once again also emphasize to NOT barrier block. Otherwise they'll know you're trying to bait.

[TD]

I think this method will lose to people who dont delay their burst or do it early enough so that 5b will completely whiff them during the burst animation (actually l know this from experience... alot of it -_-). this in turn will ruin the rest of the 'bait' you had. not to mention the delay jump is giving the foe lots of leeway to just jump/backdash/mash moves. jumping and winding yourself down with 3d instead of 2d is much easier to counter

also, if you air block a burst from a low height or instant block, l believe your chances of punishing the burst is already high.

honestly, i'd rather bait it with 0 wind and proceed to wreck face (or continue pressure), take the burst and set up some zoning or wind myself back in instantly with 5d airdash. this way im not really giving anything up, and im more or less 'reacting' to the burst instead of anticipating it.

it is another option that wasn't here before though.

[gli]

Rachel can really take advantage of the fact that you can tech right away after getting hit by a green burst. While you are flying off you can tech forward mid-flight and IAD+wind yourself for a really fast in-your-face approach after getting hit by green burst. Use this to catch them by surprise to continue pressure / get a random hit in.

[[SpA]Relentless]

It should be noted though that this will not work if the burst hits as a CH, in which case you can't tech mid-air.

[Tari]

Relentless;1169347']It should be noted though that this will not work if the burst hits as a CH' date=' in which case you can't tech mid-air.[/quote']

That's when you rageburst their burst!

*cough*

No, please don't actually do that unless it'll net you the win somehow.

[[SpA]Relentless]

Incredibly awesome dirty double overhead with easier hitconfirm by sohei

Setup:

In the corner, make the opponent block a frog.

Do 2D j.B dj.[C]

Option A: Opponent got hit by j.B > cancel j.[C] into j.C, then proceed with an aircombo (preferably j.C > 2D > dj.2C(Lv3) > 2A(w) > 5C(w)C > frog oki).Video example

Option B: Opponent blocked j.B > cancel j.[C] into j.B. Because j.[C] makes you float in the air longer, the 2nd j.B will be done extremely low to the ground. An opponent that's not used to this will think that you actually don't have time to get another aerial attack out.Video example

If the opponent catches on, you can opt to land after the first j.B and go into a low instead, or you can do a fake j.[C] by just doing j.C, then land and go into a low.

[[SpA]Relentless]

I've recently run into a pretty fundamental problem which I didn't realize I had because everyone I play against neutral techs everytime.

Scenario: I did Rachel's corner bnb (5B > 5CDC > 214A > 3C(1) > 236A > 214B > d.5CC > d.3C > 214C > 3C > 214A) ending with 3C knockdown + frog and pumpkin oki. My opponent attempts to forward roll to escape the corner.

• If I press nothing, he escapes. If I got good enough reaction, I can maybe punish the roll, but then I have to do a mediocre midscreen combo.
  
• If I anticipate with 2A (into 5B etc) and he latetechs, 2A will bluebeat, and a proper followup combo will likely not be possible anymore. He can thus airtech and escape the corner too. Sometimes george will also activate because of this but not connect fully after I OTGed with 2A 5B, further ruining things.
  
• Sometimes I can catch the forward roll directly with 2A (optimal situation), but sometimes I mistime it and whiff 2A while the opponent is now behind me.
  
• 3C would work to trip them but it's not optimal if they neutral tech, and again if they managed to roll behind me I must do a midscreen combo.
  
  
  
  So yeah, what's the optimal way to punish people for rolling forward after 3C knockdown in the corner? Preferably I want to keep them in the corner, possibly tack on good damage so they finally start neutral teching.
  
  Other solutions would be:
  
  • Ending with 5CC > frog instead. This would the best workaround but I don't think that it's possible to end the bnb with 5CC unless you began from a great starter like 5B. What's the worst possible starter that still lets me end this combo with 5CC?
    
  • Cutting the combo short and ending with 214B after the 2nd 5CC. I think I'll try this for now, after 5CC pumpkin I'm far enough from the opponent so he can't roll behind me, and there's no George out that might interfere with my bluebeat combo. Less wind recovery is a disadvantage though.
    

  Do you have any other suggestions for me?

[Tari]

The pumpkin can catch the roll tech. 1D stops it cold and lets you combo with a delayed (5A) 5B into air combo with a j.2C knockdown into George. There's a reason you have a pumpkin out during that setup, after all. :P

Depending on how close you are to the opponent, as well, a simple 5B is often a good answer to rolls.