[P4AU] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

[Elochai]

I've tried to get across the point before, and got shot down for it, but I'll try to say it again.(Tell me if I'm wrong.)

Elizabeth isn't any better because every other character has got decent improvements, and the buffs Liz got is not good enough. She also lost some decent things, like huge damage.

I still think it's too early to make a call on her damage output. Not everything is really fleshed out yet. Even with the loss of damage, I think that having better tools more than makes up for it (even if they're only accessible once awakened). I somewhat agree on the bit about Liz buffs, but only because she gets the majority of them in awakening. I'm still waiting for someone to use Randomizer in some way.

Garudyne has fatal counter recovery :X

This isn't so bad. It's not like there're Elizabeth players who just throw out Garudynes whenever.

oh wait, I do lolllllll

[Luminos564]

I still think it's too early to make a call on her damage output. Not everything is really fleshed out yet. Even with the loss of damage, I think that having better tools more than makes up for it (even if they're only accessible once awakened). I somewhat agree on the bit about Liz buffs, but only because she gets the majority of them in awakening. I'm still waiting for someone to use Randomizer in some way.

Thing is, we know most characters got damage reductions all across the board, Lizzie included. Her damage is still respectable, don't get me wrong. It's just that everyone else has a more reliable, less restricted methods of landing their damage. Lizzie was the glass-cannon of P4A:

-Horrible Health (7500).

-Near worthless Furious Action (Shuffle Time) and an entirely useless Counter Assault, which meant very poor defensive game.

-High damage off of various set-ups, especially with Fear.

P4U2 saw her health increase to 8000 and gave her better tools (seriously, JC>JD is awesome), but the health is still incredibly low, her defensive options still suck and with her damage being low unless we pay an incredibly hefty price for forcing Awakening, things often go downhill really fast. Dazardz is right with his statement: Lizzie has gotten better in some areas and Awakening is very unique to her. Sadly, her buffs are far outshined by everyone else and it simply is not enough. I am willing to admit that since virtually nobody plays her in dear Nihon, finding out all she has is a slow progress. But based on what has been seen thus far, the picture is not as pretty as I'd like it to be. It isn't as bad as with say the CS2 to CSE Makoto, but Lizzie could still be so much more if you catch my drift.

[Strife]

P4U2 saw her health increase to 8000 and gave her better tools (seriously, JC>JD is awesome), but the health is still incredibly low.

I think her HP is just fine. Damousu managed to use Mind Charge at 80% and recover all the blue HP before Kanji was able to hit him. That's 80% HP with Defense boost from Awakening.

Sure, Kanji isn't that good at getting hits (especially against her) but I still see some potential there.

[TheArm05]

Kanji is a rare case that actually has a lot of trouble approaching Liz. Blue life is just too easy to randomly lose against most characters IMO it is a huge risk Mind Charging at >60%. Chie flailing with j.A/B ,Mits holding forward and pressing A, Narukami dash up 2B, Yukiko Fans. All go from being not a huge deal to being the end of the round.

I already know that the first video we get of Damosu vs a good Mits is going to bring back the sadness. Damosu vs Minori would be a bloodbath.

I still plan on playing Liz hard but I won't make the mistake of her being my only character again. I am picking up Mitsuru or something.

[Luminos564]

I think her HP is just fine. Damousu managed to use Mind Charge at 80% and recover all the blue HP before Kanji was able to hit him. That's 80% HP with Defense boost from Awakening.

Sure, Kanji isn't that good at getting hits (especially against her) but I still see some potential there.

TheArm05 already answered most of this, but I'll offer up my 2 cents here. Regaining health against Kanji is not all that difficult. His damage is a virtual death sentence to Lizzie but he has no real method to either close in or punish the (B)Mind Charge. Even if he did somehow get a lucky hit in to take the blue health away, a swift Diarahan will null his efforts. Try saying the same againt Yu, Mitsuru, Aigis, Yosuke, Yukiko, Chie and so on. It's why I brought up the idea that, if ASW is not willing to raise her health higher (seriously, forcing yourself down to approximately 2000 health for Awakening is far too risky for a character that has no real defensive options), they should at least:

1. Allow her to Awaken earlier since that's where she really gets going.

OR

2. Give her defensive tools that are actually worth a damn. Shuffle Time and her Counter Assault are not going to do the job (as they are now) I'm afraid.

I know how good (and essential) Mind Charge is for her. However, you must understand that unless you are able to read your opponent like a book, the chances of you regaining a good amount of blue healh w/o Diarahan against anyone other than Kanji are very, very low.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Luminos564

[Strife]

Yes and yes, if you read my post you'll know that I'm fully aware of Liz vs Kanji. I'm just stating that even if unlikely, it could happen against any other opponent.

As for the suggestions, allowing her to enter Awakening earlier is not an option. I mean, it would be different than the original system so imo it wouldn't be "fair". I don't know.

Anyway, my take on defensive options:

- Shuffle Time

I still think her DP is better than Labrys' but not that good nonetheless. Maybe they didn't buff it because Liz is not supposed to have a strong defensive option by the end of the day. I guess ASW thinks her zoning and space control are solid enough that she doesn't need it, well.

- Guard Cancel

Many other people stated this before but yeah, she's consistently gaining SP, if she had a strong or decent GC, it would be a little too strong.

But hey, good news, they added Guard roll in the game. It's universal, but maybe she can use that as a better defensive option compared to DP or GC.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Strife

[DaiAndOh]

I think ya'll need to be patient and get your hands on the game as well as see way more quality videos (given how limited the usage for this character is, let alone good players) before crying about what she needs. Not like ASW is going to see it.

Anyway, I enjoy the fact she has more variety of tools overall. Still can't go over Awakening 236AB.

I wonder if those Hama combos will prove practical....

[Luminos564]

Was going to do a long-ass post in response to Strife but I think DaiAndOh may have more of a point. I'll withdraw my comment until later. Who knows, maybe ASW will re-balance things again for the console version...hey, a guy can dream. All for my waifu after all .

I wonder if those Hama combos will prove practical....

If she could, that'd be a sweet deal. Screw being a big-damage glass cannon. Just gimme a ToD Mahamaon Lizzie stuff and we're in business. But then, Naoto'd be out of a job. Still, the new combo vid did show a mid-screen Mahamaon combo and it seemed semi-practical, despite the 150 SP requirement.

[Eshi]

Was going to do a long-ass post in response to Strife but I think DaiAndOh may have more of a point. I'll withdraw my comment until later. Who knows, maybe ASW will re-balance things again for the console version...hey, a guy can dream. All for my waifu after all .

If she could, that'd be a sweet deal. Screw being a big-damage glass cannon. Just gimme a ToD Mahamaon Lizzie stuff and we're in business. But then, Naoto'd be out of a job. Still, the new combo vid did show a mid-screen Mahamaon combo and it seemed semi-practical, despite the 150 SP requirement.

it's practical

if you played like damosu and mind charge all your health away ASAP, but yeah, high risk. I wonder how big of a mindset shift is required to play her well.

[Eshi]

Was going to do a long-ass post in response to Strife but I think DaiAndOh may have more of a point. I'll withdraw my comment until later. Who knows, maybe ASW will re-balance things again for the console version...hey, a guy can dream. All for my waifu after all .

If she could, that'd be a sweet deal. Screw being a big-damage glass cannon. Just gimme a ToD Mahamaon Lizzie stuff and we're in business. But then, Naoto'd be out of a job. Still, the new combo vid did show a mid-screen Mahamaon combo and it seemed semi-practical, despite the 150 SP requirement.

it's practical if you played like damosu and mind charge all your health away ASAP. Super high risk with super high reward? I wonder how big of a mindset shift is required to play her well.

[Dazardz]

So, Elizabeth, the ultimate runback character? Which in fact was just an instant kill combo?

If this is practical, I think Liz has a really good chance, come on, 150 meter is a lot but this combo could pretty much be done anywhere on the screen with almost any starter. I like this.

I still haven't seen Mahamamudoon anyway, or however you say it.

[TheArm05]

Well granted I think having one semi practical Mahamaon combo still makes her less of a comeback character than P4U Liz's "I can two shot you off anything comebacks".

I already played P4U Liz super risky so I don't think I will mind the playstyle shift in favor of risky play. I just hope I can contain the salt losing when I get 5A'd for 4k life + combo dmg.

For reference Dazardz. Hama = Expel magic. Mudo = Death magic. The prefix Ma means its aoe. The suffix oan/on means the powered up version of the spell. Mamudoon being the highest level mudo spell.

[Dazardz]

For reference Dazardz. Hama = Expel magic. Mudo = Death magic. The prefix Ma means its aoe. The suffix oan/on means the powered up version of the spell. Mamudoon being the highest level mudo spell.

I have not played Persona 3 in a LONG time but I can get what you are saying. But in this game, I think ASW ruled that logic out and made SB Hamaon/Mudoon actually both Mahamaon and Mamudoon put together. Makes no sense but Elizabeth can't destroy each character in the cast with 1 strike, nothing should make sense.

[godofwar7]

Maha is the prefix for aoe attacks in the japanese version. According to LK anyway. So dazards wasnt completely off base there.

Its not expel magic and death magic in p3, its light and dark. And both function as death magic. I know its different in other SMT games though, it being expel and death instead.

[DaiAndOh]

To me, if any character in any fighting game had a practical full meter combo, it's this one (outside of Alpha 3 where you start with full meter :P)

[Luminos564]

Dazardz brought up something I forgot: why is there no Mamudoon combos? It certainly activates quicker than Mahamaon and covers more of an area than it as well. Granted, it covers the area above Lizzie but you'd think with the new Awakened Magarudyne, it wouldn't be that much of a problem to land it. I'd have thought at the least that SB Mamudoon would be of some use since it is placed in front of Lizzie. Then again, Mahamaon and Mamudoon always were very situational supers since they disappear when Lizzie is hit (block or no) and with their pretty long wind-up. I'd still love to see someone pull them off in an actual match though. That'd be wicked.

[susano]

I'm not liking the new Liz now. Maybe they're afraid of her being too powerful or something but making her a paper dolls isn't exactly good either. She needs better health and tools pre awakening.

[Dazardz]

I'm not liking the new Liz now. Maybe they're afraid of her being too powerful or something but making her a paper dolls isn't exactly good either. She needs better health and tools pre awakening.

They were probably scared of that in the first version too, but Elizabeth was still able to deal a huge amount of damage.

I will seriously not mind only having access to those buffs only in awakening IF she is able to control neutral as if she were Kokonoe.

[Zephyrion22]

Dazardz brought up something I forgot: why is there no Mamudoon combos? It certainly activates quicker than Mahamaon and covers more of an area than it as well. Granted, it covers the area above Lizzie but you'd think with the new Awakened Magarudyne, it wouldn't be that much of a problem to land it. I'd have thought at the least that SB Mamudoon would be of some use since it is placed in front of Lizzie. Then again, Mahamaon and Mamudoon always were very situational supers since they disappear when Lizzie is hit (block or no) and with their pretty long wind-up. I'd still love to see someone pull them off in an actual match though. That'd be wicked.

If I remember correctly, Mamudoon activates a lot quicker than Mahamaon, but it has a lot more recovery upon use, meaning you can't get anything to connect after using it. Maybe there is a new path involving it for P4U2 Liz thanks to her new tools, but as of now, Mahamon is the most viable of the two because it's easier to combo from

[Luminos564]

If I remember correctly, Mamudoon activates a lot quicker than Mahamaon, but it has a lot more recovery upon use, meaning you can't get anything to connect after using it. Maybe there is a new path involving it for P4U2 Liz thanks to her new tools, but as of now, Mahamon is the most viable of the two because it's easier to combo from

Hmm, if the recovery is huge then that would explain why nobody used it yet. I was hoping you could go from SB Awakened.Mabufudyne>Mamudoon>stuff>Awakened.Magarudyne for the death but that seems to not be possible despite the freeze time involved. That's too bad. There's nothing more depressing to me than a character who cannot utilize all of their moves in a viable way. Call me old-fashioned but in my day, every character's move served a purpose in that characters tool set, even if it wasn't the best move in the game.

Also, it appears I was wrong on that midscreen Mahamaon combo. It only needs 100SP, Burst and for you to be Awakened prior, which is no big deal for Lizzie. So yeah, mostly practical outside of maybe the Burst which we'd often need to get out of combos that break us.

[Elochai]

Has anyone even seen SB Mamudoon? If it's as fast as Hama (+ had good recovery) was in P4U, then it'd be useful.

[Luminos564]

Has anyone even seen SB Mamudoon?

Nope. Reports only state it summons the Mamudoon circle in front of Lizzie, though whether that means it is summoned in front of her current (ground) position or if it actively follows her movements before activating remains unanswered.

If it's as fast as Hama (+ had good recovery) was in P4U, then it'd be useful.

Mahamaon is slower to activate but it has better recovery. Mamudoon activates quicker (I think ~3 in-game seconds less than Mahamaon's 10) but poor recovery. If SB Mamuddon combines the best of both worlds, I'd say that it'd be worth the 75 SP. Of course, that assumes someone actually experiments with it to begin with.

[Dazardz]

Nope. Reports only state it summons the Mamudoon circle in front of Lizzie, though whether that means it is summoned in front of her current (ground) position or if it actively follows her movements before activating remains unanswered.

This is disappointing. From the loketest notes, I heard it was both Mahamaon and Mamudoon on the screen at the same time. Oh well.

Edit:

Any info on whether we can still OMC 5C?

Edited January 26, 2014 by Dazardz

[Luminos564]

This is disappointing. From the loketest notes, I heard it was both Mahamaon and Mamudoon on the screen at the same time. Oh well.

That'd be kinda breaking the established rule (we can only have 1 instant-death trap ready at a time). And let us not kid ourselves; 75 SP for both Mahamaon and Mamudoon is a little overpowering despite their shortcomings as supers.

Edit:

Any info on whether we can still OMC 5C?

Yup. We always could. Elochai posted some videos and one of the (admittedly poor) Lizzie players did that to try and psyche out the Yu player. It...didn't work but hey, points for trying I guess.

[Zephyrion22]

This is disappointing. From the loketest notes, I heard it was both Mahamaon and Mamudoon on the screen at the same time. Oh well.

Edit:

Any info on whether we can still OMC 5C?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4j6BppRXs84

Stumbled on this : Score attack boss Elizabeth using SB Mamudoon. so the recovery is as crappy as the regular one, but the circle is in front of Liz at ground level as stated earlier.

As for OMC 5C, the big issue is that now Thanatos seems to stop at the OMCed hit, meaning that it may be a better idea to go for dash cancel. Might still be useful for catching those who hold upback with 5C>OMC> 5C but that's pretty much it, I guess.