Waldstein Infinite Discussion (Tournament Legality)

[Ghost Cobra]

This glitch does no damage and only purpose is to remove the other players ability to play the game.

nothing hype about it

nothing interesting about it

 

Any decent player who cares about anyone else would soft ban it.

And what is the point of risk upsetting people (like me) in a match with disrespect by taking them out of the game with a glitch?

[tataki]

This is like the most no brainer banning case in recent years I can think of. Nothing of value will be lost if it's banned.

[setrajonas]

Very good points were already made by dusk thanatos and coren.

I'd vote to keep it banned since he actually can function 1000% without it and it'd look bad for the game when other people come to watch. Also French bread is very good about patching infinites and glitches very quickly, so it won't even be a issue down the line.

Not that I care about this issue either way, but "This makes the game look bad" is never a good argument for getting rid of something, especially in a genre with a history like fgs, surprised to see you of all people saying this.

[sibladeko]

Fighting games aren't fought in a vacuum, especially in regards to tournaments.

Community input is always a factor when dealing with glitches/infinites in competitive play, the extreme notions of "ban everything" and "it's in the game deal with it" don't exist as pure concepts in our scene, they are always in the context of the game they are present in.

I'm tired of Smash analogies because that game's framework from the ground up is designed around banning things to reach a competitive standard their community deems fit.

It's an extreme version of ours, and any comparisons to "looking like Smash" just don't work from a conceptual level.

 

Marvel vs Capcom 2 banned dead body infinites for the express purpose of timing out wins.

This is in a game where infinites of all sorts, guaranteed unblockables on coming in characters, repeated juggles on assists until kill, and all sorts of grime were allowed and encouraged.

In the context of Marvel 2 and all the things I listed above, why do you think they banned dead body infinites that timed out the game of all things?

You can have an entire list of reasons drawn up, but in the end I'm pretty sure they decided that having them banned would not detract from the game, and that they added nothing of value.

This is a community decision, and in the context of MVC2, they felt it was the correct one.

You could extrapolate this argument to "having all infinites banned would not detract from the game and they added nothing of value," and from a completely abstract viewpoint, you could be right.

But from a community standpoint, you'd be completely crazy, and that's why there has to be consensus on these things.

[Klaige]

From my perspective this is a pretty easy choice to be rid of for multiple reasons.

1. It does nothing to benefit the game or improve it from a competitive standpoint.  Regardless of whether Wald was top tier, or worst in the game, this is abuse of a glitch to take a round that is not in the spirit of the game.  It's effectively unplugging your opponents controller while you have a life lead and not plugging it back in til round end, and that wouldn't be allowed in any event.

 

2. Glitches whose sole purpose are to effectively softlock the game until the timer ends to win a round by life lead have been banned in many other games, so there is already precedent for this type of ban.

3. It only does harm to attempts to grow the player base and get more people interested in the game.  Uniel has a lot going for it, it's a unique blend of anime and traditional 2d footsies that has a lot of potential to bring in players from multiple fighting games if given a proper chance.  While it's not incredibly likely, if someones first exposure to a game is a timer scam infinite that wastes everyones time and interest, then it's not going to be a good look for a game that's barely started it's run as a competitive 2d fighter outside japan.

This is all pretty common sense stuff, the infinite does nothing that is helpful to the game itself or the players, and the only arguments one could reasonably put up for not banning it are all slippery-slope or strawman points that need to be looked at more objectively.

[Klaige]

Not that I care about this issue either way, but "This makes the game look bad" is never a good argument for getting rid of something, especially in a genre with a history like fgs, surprised to see you of all people saying this.

It's a perfectly valid reason.  There are constant rule changes and updates to all sorts of games and sports that are made because something is bringing nothing of benefit to that game or sport and casts a negative light upon it.  Especially in this case where it's an obvious programming oversight and not an intended feature of the game.

[Hecatom]

The only reasons to ban this are if it becomes the dominant strategy to win with him and turns all his matchups into something akin 8:2 or worse.

So i vote for not baning it until is proven truly broken. Baning without any kind of proof is smash level of softass bullshit.

Ban it. There's nothing more boring than seeing top play filled with infinites.

Play to win marica

[setrajonas]

So are you one of those people that think fireball spamming should be banned from street fighter, or Morridoom from Mvc3? There are a lot of good reasons to ban this infinite that don't rely on an entirely subjective lens of how "bad" something looks to other people, I feel that discussion should center around those arguments instead.

[Klaige]

So are you one of those people that think fireball spamming should be banned from street fighter, or Morridoom from Mvc3? There are a lot of good reasons to ban this infinite that don't rely on an entirely subjective lens of how "bad" something looks to other people, I feel that discussion should center around those arguments instead.

Fireball "spam" looks bad to scrubs or people who don't understand the inner workings of the game, completely different topic in any way.  When a game is trying to establish itself as a brand new IP, and honestly a brand new style of game, then making the point that this would be a bad look for it is absolutely valid. There's a huge difference in something that "looks" bad to players who aren't yet experienced with a game, and something like this that looks absolutely stupid to anyone with working brain cells.  You are going to be very hard pressed to sell a competitive game to anyone of any level if they see a character abusing a timer scam and completely negating the purpose of a 1v1 match.  When the game has a chance to gather a new audience and get more players to give it a look I fail to see why you think that's not a valid point in this argument.  Note that  I never said it was the only argument, i simply said it's another valid reason for casting a vote to ban it, nothing more.

[sibladeko]

The only reasons to ban this are if it becomes the dominant strategy to win with him and turns all his matchups into something akin 8:2 or worse.

So i vote for not baning it until is proven truly broken. Baning without any kind of proof is smash level of softass bullshit.

Play to win marica

I'm glad you took the time to not read anything.

Arguing by Smash analogy doesn't work

MVC2 banned dead body infinites for the express purpose of timing out so maybe you should look for more examples closer to the type of game we're playing here.

[haketh]

It's Hecatom, just ignore him he has a long history of not thinking things like this logically and using it as a chance to shit on the Smash scene.

 

I played MVC2 back in the ehy days, something like this would have been banned them for the same reason Gambit Glitch, Ruby Heart Glitch, and Dead Body infinites were, running out the clock strategies like this completely cut out any interaction at any point and do not promote competetion or good play their is literally no reason for a Wald to not do this infinite if they have the resources and they score the first hit. Keeping this because JP hasn't banned it yet isn't a good reason to keep it around either because they have nothing to do with our scene outside of a few majors, usually one or two a year and this isn't like it makes Wald a useless character if he's removed or cripples his pick ups if you ban it.

[GaoGaoGao]

Despite what people are saying, its actually pretty hype right now at this stage of the game. Right now, you could be playing at your local scene and when someone lands the infinite the room is going to blow up. Its obvious that this will be patched out, so I say no to banning it, because by the time it gets stale it will hopefully be patched out. If it takes too long to patch it, then maybe we can have another discussion on whether or not to ban it because by then we will definitely have more information to work off of (stuff like if its going to be the deciding factor of most Wald matches).

[stickystaines]

It's funny the first time, after that it's fucking boring.

 

And i feel this should mostly be a factor between the 2 people who will be playing the matchup and not people around it i.e. the stream or the crowd. The fact is that if someone hits the infinite then the other opponent is going to sit there for at least 60+ seconds most likely. You can easily go for the infinite every match multiple times; especially past the first round. So simply for it's ease in setting up and for the sake of the opponent's sanity, i think it should go. Brings no benefit to anyone.

[Afternoon Intergalactic]

Despite what people are saying, its actually pretty hype right now at this stage of the game. Right now, you could be playing at your local scene and when someone lands the infinite the room is going to blow up. Its obvious that this will be patched out, so I say no to banning it, because by the time it gets stale it will hopefully be patched out. If it takes too long to patch it, then maybe we can have another discussion on whether or not to ban it because by then we will definitely have more information to work off of (stuff like if its going to be the deciding factor of most Wald matches).

 

I don't know about your scene, but if the wald player at mine did this during a match to anyone, the reaction would not be a positive one. Seriously. Just imagine sitting next to a guy mashing 6C for 60 seconds and you'll start to see what I mean. 

[Mike Z]

I say ban it mostly so the game is shown in the best light possible at its first major. Some people are still om the fence and seeing a wald win due to the infinite might stray them away.

I say allow it because as long as it's there that IS the state of the game, dressing it up nicely doesn't make it less broken.

You can't ban it online, and the people who do learn the game and then encounter it would get frustrated there anyway, since it's so easy to set up and to do.

 

The difference between this and a soft-lock is that this at least takes some execution the entire time.

 

I don't agree with sanitizing tournaments to lure more people in, but I'm sure most people do agree with that, which is sad.

Hell you could even just allow it if Wald is losing.  :^)

 

(I also think it's easily the most entertaining part of the game so far, but that's just me.)

[Anne]

I haven't decided on how my events are going to handle it. The players want it banned, but I'm undecided because I honestly don't know much about how hard it affects things yet. The damn thing has been known about for months in Japan and I'm curious as to why nobody there has been doing it often and why nobody here brought this up earlier. I have an idea and we're leaning on banning it, but I just want to know more about it before I say anything.

Also, I won't ban it because it's lame, is a bad look, might upset people, etc. That's pretty bad thinking to me. I'll only ban it if we can concretely say it damages the meta, which I don't know yet :T

[LordSpectreX]

I say allow it because as long as it's there that IS the state of the game, dressing it up nicely doesn't make it less broken.

You can't ban it online, and the people who do learn the game and then encounter it would get frustrated there anyway, since it's so easy to set up and to do.

 

The difference between this and a soft-lock is that this at least takes some execution the entire time.

 

I don't agree with sanitizing tournaments to lure more people in, but I'm sure most people do agree with that, which is sad.

Hell you could even just allow it if Wald is losing.  :^)

 

(I also think it's easily the most entertaining part of the game so far, but that's just me.)

 

Wow, you really did create Skullgirls.

[Dusk Thanatos]

I haven't decided on how my events are going to handle it. The players want it banned, but I'm undecided because I honestly don't know much about how hard it affects things yet. The damn thing has been known about for months in Japan and I'm curious as to why nobody there has been doing it often and why nobody here brought this up earlier. I have an idea and we're leaning on banning it, but I just want to know more about it before I say anything.

Also, I won't ban it because it's lame, is a bad look, might upset people, etc. That's pretty bad thinking to me. I'll only ban it if we can concretely say it damages the meta, which I don't know yet :T

 

Japan may well not be doing it simply -because- it's bad for the game. It's not unheard of for JP to have unspoken soft bans (see Sirlin's talk about Akuma and Old Sagat in Playing to Win).

[haketh]

Even if Japan didn't ban it we shouldn't be defaulting to what they do just because it's Japan

[Anne]

I'm not saying I want to do what Japan does, I'm just curious WHY I'm not seeing it. If it's a soft ban or if it actually just doesn't happen often naturally, I have no idea. I'm not going to make assumptions either, like "Oh they probably soft banned it, it's why we don't see it." I want to know if it's uncommon because of a soft ban or if it's just something Waldstein's don't think or want to go for.

[Dusk Thanatos]

I'm not saying I want to do what Japan does, I'm just curious WHY I'm not seeing it. If it's a soft ban or if it actually just doesn't happen often naturally, I have no idea. I'm not going to make assumptions either, like "Oh they probably soft banned it, it's why we don't see it." I want to know if it's uncommon because of a soft ban or if it's just something Waldstein's don't think or want to go for.

 

What other explanation is there, if it hasn't been patched out of arcade?

 

It's incredibly easy to do and lead into, doesn't take a lot of resources, and autowins if you have a life lead. Anyone trying to win would be using it if there wasn't some kind of agreement not to. And it's not that it "rarely happens;" like people said, we saw the infinite for about a week, then never saw it again.

 

If you want to be certain, do what Tigre suggested earlier, and find a way to contact JP for their opinion.

[Circuitous]

Banning it at my tournaments. Giving two reps for people to realize it's happening and adjust, just on the off-chance it was an honest mistake.

 

It's a dumb thing, and probably not intentional. This doesn't change the fact that it's in the game, and it will be encountered online and probably even in casuals. It's a thing people should know about and be aware of, and I think the 6C infinite as a thing has been adequately brought to light.

 

My intention in banning it isn't to hide it, or to make the game look better. It's just a huge waste of time. I'm selfish like that. It's hard enough for me to run all the games I run in a day without intentional timeouts happening any given round, especially in a game that normally goes at a pretty quick pace.

 

So for these selfish and arbitrary reasons, I support banning it.

[AchedSphinx]

I'm pretty indifferent on the matter because this feels like a double standard to me. For instance, Naoto has an SMP infinite in P4A, but it was allowed because Naoto wasn't a high-tiered character by any means, and often times it felt like Naoto cheesed her way to a win (if they used this method to win). The set-up isn't even impractical since most Naoto's did it. The only difference I could see was that P4A has bursts and UNIEL doesn't.

[Anne]

I have no other explanation other than I simply don't know yet, it's why I'm curious. It'd be nice to contact somebody who's been playing the game for more than a week and has some more insight into this, but it's not something I can easily do.

 

Banning it at my tournaments. Giving two reps for people to realize it's happening and adjust, just on the off-chance it was an honest mistake.

 

It's a dumb thing, and probably not intentional. This doesn't change the fact that it's in the game, and it will be encountered online and probably even in casuals. It's a thing people should know about and be aware of, and I think the 6C infinite as a thing has been adequately brought to light.

 

My intention in banning it isn't to hide it, or to make the game look better. It's just a huge waste of time. I'm selfish like that. It's hard enough for me to run all the games I run in a day without intentional timeouts happening any given round, especially in a game that normally goes at a pretty quick pace.

 

So for these selfish and arbitrary reasons, I support banning it.

This is more or less the same reasons I have considered banning it. Player demand and the fact it's /probably/ busted makes me lean on that harder. I just want to know a bit more first, I'm in no rush.

 

I'm pretty indifferent on the matter because this feels like a double standard to me. For instance, Naoto has an SMP infinite in P4A, but it was allowed because Naoto wasn't a high-tiered character by any means, and often times it felt like Naoto cheesed her way to a win (if they used this method to win). The set-up isn't even impractical since most Naoto's did it. The only difference I could see was that P4A has bursts and UNIEL doesn't.

Don't want to start an argument over this, but it's worth pointing out for this discussion that SMP loops aren't infinites and they were never up for being banned.

[Dusk Thanatos]

I'm pretty indifferent on the matter because this feels like a double standard to me. For instance, Naoto has an SMP infinite in P4A, but it was allowed because Naoto wasn't a high-tiered character by any means, and often times it felt like Naoto cheesed her way to a win (if they used this method to win). The set-up isn't even impractical since most Naoto's did it. The only difference I could see was that P4A has bursts and UNIEL doesn't.

 

Naoto's SMP loop didn't run the timer. It actually killed her opponent.

 

 

I have no other explanation other than I simply don't know yet, it's why I'm curious. It'd be nice to contact somebody who's been playing the game for more than a week and has some more insight into this, but it's not something I can easily do.

 

Lots of players that can speak or know JP are in contact with the JP community via twitter and other means (e.g., LordKnight). If you know someone like that, there's no harm in seeing if they can contact someone to get an answer.